T97A Final Verdict?

Okay, I'm talking out of my a$$ here -- I have no knowledge of the T97 other than what I just read in the legal report -- but what it looks like to me is that Norinco (or whichever manufacturer Norinco bought these from) chose the easiest, cheapest way to try to make these guns semi only. They (probably) just manufactured side plates without a full-auto position for the selector switch and left all the "good" parts fully functional inside.

As for the magazines, they claimed to have welded in spacers but just threw them in loose.

Norinco screwed the pooch, big time.

We can't complain about the Tribunal's fairness: they agreed to consider magazines and rifles separately and refused CBSA's request to have Dr. Smith's testimony presented in camera.
 
2drx4 said:
They never paid for anything, unless this preorder worked different than all the others.

They just take your CC info ahead of time, and charge you when they actually are shipping the gun to you. If the guns never show up, or there is some other problem, you're not charged.
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That's correct in the case of my pre-order. Nothing charged ... just reserving funds on my end.
 
Notice that there is no mention of the rifle functionality after the "modification" with "a spring, a paper clip and a popsicle stick". I bet you it will never fire in full auto, more over the famous popsicle would have jammed the internals and the rifle would have stopped functioning all together. But the way law works, i am sure that there was the requirement to show the possibility of a "modification" to full auto, but not the requirement to show that it will "function" with those modifications. Canadaammo was in a very difficult situation. It was an uphill battle for them.
 
2drx4 said:
They never paid for anything, unless this preorder worked different than all the others.

They just take your CC info ahead of time, and charge you when they actually are shipping the gun to you. If the guns never show up, or there is some other problem, you're not charged.
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dagtaph said:
Notice that there is no mention of the rifle functionality after the "modification" with "a spring, a paper clip and a popsicle stick". I bet you it will never fire in full auto, more over the famous popsicle would have jammed the internals and the rifle would have stopped functioning all together. But the way law works, i am sure that there was the requirement to show the possibility of a "modification" to full auto, but not the requirement to show that it will "function" with those modifications. Canadaammo was in a very difficult situation. It was an uphill battle for them.
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For sure, but since you can still pre-order, I wonder if there is something still happening on this front. Otherwise it's false hope.
 
Old info guys. If you want to read the transcript I have it.

The published public ruling leaves a huge amount out.

I suggest going over the old threads, I will not go through it all again here.

One point re: the SKS. Our law, Hasselwander, et al requires a comparison be made, so it was made, with the most common semi-auto guns in the country.

Finally, this was just the CITT, not a court. No where near final.

I suggest reading the other T97 thread with recent activity for the latest info.

If you want to stop relying on the FRT, previous imports, etc and open cans of worms, we can. As it stands, importers must rely on the FRT, for good or bad, correct or not. We cannot make our own judgements prior to importation.
 
blaxsun said:
First I've heard of this. Popsicle stick or paper clip... interesting (that's more than they divulged in the other T97 case).
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FYI this does not apply to the T97. One example where the CITT member lost his way/forgot/did not care to know. It was discussed in regards to the SKS and other guns, not the T97. His ruling was incorrect on several recollections like this.

PS The way guns are reviewed is expected to change soon, which will be good for most cases, but bad for some misclassified in our favour, I suspect ( i.e. can of worms above)

Of course all this will be moot if the CPC changes/removes/rewrites etc. the prohib list.
 
you cannot modify the existing guns into compliance once built, you must make new guns. This was discussed in the recent T97 thread in our forum. As I said, either way, new guns will be coming in for sale.
 
CanAm said:
you cannot modify the existing guns into compliance once built, you must make new guns. This was discussed in the recent T97 thread in our forum. As I said, either way, new guns will be coming in for sale.
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Very glad to hear it. I did sample the old threads and sticky, but didn't read every post and missed any reference to new guns. It`s old info yes, but it`s also been nearly a year from when the thread was closed.

Thanks!
 
CanAm said:
FYI this does not apply to the T97. One example where the CITT member lost his way/forgot/did not care to know. It was discussed in regards to the SKS and other guns, not the T97. His ruling was incorrect on several recollections like this.

PS The way guns are reviewed is expected to change soon, which will be good for most cases, but bad for some misclassified in our favour, I suspect ( i.e. can of worms above)

Of course all this will be moot if the CPC changes/removes/rewrites etc. the prohib list.
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Well, I'm all out of popsicle sticks anyway...

In more interested in your comment regarding how the way firearms are reviewed is expected to change. What if anything can you shed light on?

Does this mean previously classified firearms may be reclassified based on new criteria? Are we talking about bullpup designs like the Tavor, PS90, FS2000 and RFB or firearms like the XCR-L, XCR-M and ACR?
 
But in seems like 97a was singled out, because in theory for ANY semi auto all you need is a file and to file away a sear a bit before the rifle start emptying mags UNCONTROLABLY. Of course these rifles become totally useless for anything, but it is an easy way for bureaucrats of police variety to pick on rifles that look military to show the public who can’t tell one rifle from another that they are hard at work in their offices. It is a big theater in my opinion, since everybody needs to justify his paycheck.
 
blaxsun said:
80 wooden crates, each containing ten T97A's and fifty magazines for a total of 800 firearms and 4,000 magazines.
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...you need to ask yourself what "rent" is on storing these monthly in "secure lockup"?

Is this cost being passed on to Canada Ammo? or is it the Canadian taxpayer footing the bill?

A shame either way.

It's equally s**tty to think that if Canada Ammo didn't have all of that operating capital ($) locked up in T97's, he would have likely brought in 800 units of some other new rifle design instead.

...it would be terrible to try to get to sleep at night knowing you have that much capital locked up and likely heading to a smelter.... (My hat is off to you Canada Ammo.)
 
avroe said:
...you need to ask yourself what "rent" is on storing these monthly in "secure lockup"?

Is this cost being passed on to Canada Ammo? or is it the Canadian taxpayer footing the bill?

A shame either way.

It's equally s**tty to think that if Canada Ammo didn't have all of that operating capital ($) locked up in T97's, he would have likely brought in 800 units of some other new rifle design instead.

...it would be terrible to try to get to sleep at night knowing you have that much capital locked up and likely heading to a smelter.... (My hat is off to you Canada Ammo.)
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This is SO true, i am in business for myself and sometimes i feel like a sucker. If i calculate the number of hours i have to put in and amount of grief the government inspectors and clients causing me, i wonder whether it is worth it. Sometimes it becomes really absurd, one inspector comes and tells me to do one thing, another bureaucrat comes and tells me that i have 10 days to do EXACTLY the opposite! And most importantly none of the bureaucrats want to be responsible for anything. And this is a bigger problem with Canadian society – people don’t respect hard work anymore. If you try to start a business and God forbid you become successful and hire a couple of people, society sees you as that “rich guy” who “takes advantage of all the poor folks out there” and the government wants to tax and regulate you into the ground, but nobody want to know all the grey hair and sleepless nights you spend worrying whether you lose everything and gambled away the future of your family. Sometimes I think it is better to be on welfare, unhurriedly have a cup of coffee in the morning, read a newspaper, have no worries and enjoy life.
 
dagtaph said:
This is SO true, i am in business for myself and sometimes i feel like a sucker. If i calculate the number of hours i have to put in and amount of grief the government inspectors and clients causing me, i wonder whether it is worth it. Sometimes it becomes really absurd, one inspector comes and tells me to do one thing, another bureaucrat comes and tells me that i have 10 days to do EXACTLY the opposite! And most importantly none of the bureaucrats want to be responsible for anything. And this is a bigger problem with Canadian society – people don’t respect hard work anymore. If you try to start a business and God forbid you become successful and hire a couple of people, society sees you as that “rich guy” who “takes advantage of all the poor folks out there” and the government wants to tax and regulate you into the ground, but nobody want to know all the grey hair and sleepless nights you spend worrying whether you lose everything and gambled away the future of your family. Sometimes I think it is better to be on welfare, unhurriedly have a cup of coffee in the morning, read a newspaper, have no worries and enjoy life.
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With this I can agree (strike the last statement), being a small business owner is hard! I can`t imagine the position Canada Ammo is in.
 
Having read that whole article I can't help but think CanadaAmmo feels pretty screwed by Norinco if some of the specs were not met (ie mags welded, semi-auto conversion process etc)
 
dagtaph said:
This is SO true, i am in business for myself and sometimes i feel like a sucker. If i calculate the number of hours i have to put in and amount of grief the government inspectors and clients causing me, i wonder whether it is worth it. Sometimes it becomes really absurd, one inspector comes and tells me to do one thing, another bureaucrat comes and tells me that i have 10 days to do EXACTLY the opposite! And most importantly none of the bureaucrats want to be responsible for anything. And this is a bigger problem with Canadian society – people don’t respect hard work anymore. If you try to start a business and God forbid you become successful and hire a couple of people, society sees you as that “rich guy” who “takes advantage of all the poor folks out there” and the government wants to tax and regulate you into the ground, but nobody want to know all the grey hair and sleepless nights you spend worrying whether you lose everything and gambled away the future of your family. Sometimes I think it is better to be on welfare, unhurriedly have a cup of coffee in the morning, read a newspaper, have no worries and enjoy life.
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My sentiments exactly.
 
CanAm said:
PS The way guns are reviewed is expected to change soon, which will be good for most cases, but bad for some misclassified in our favour, I suspect ( i.e. can of worms above)

Of course all this will be moot if the CPC changes/removes/rewrites etc. the prohib list.
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Are they going to be reviewing any previous decisions? I know it could be bad, but I'd really wish somebody with a brain would look at the Rossi Circuit Judge and realize it's a non-restricted.
 
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