22LR AR15 "Trainers" ?

Clobbersauras

Clobbersauras

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As I spend more and more time at the range and more and more time "training", I realize a couple things:

1) The AR is, by far, my preferred platform.

2) .223/5.56 ammo is friggen expensive! I've structured my range sessions to limit ammo consumption, which limits my progression in this hobby. If I didn't structure my range sessions, I could easily go through $500 a month in ammo! Just not going to happen, not consistently, anyway.

I've toyed with the VZ for a couple years to keep ammo costs down, but it really doesn't live up to the AR by any measure; accuracy, ergonomics, ease and speed of manipulation, ability to attach optics etc. Also, from what I've seen with my own rifles, reliability is the same. I've researched the idea of a 7.62 x39 AR, but mags are the issue, ruining the reliability, and trumping any ammo cost savings.

So I've come to the conclusion, that in my situation, a dedicated 22lr AR trainer or upper is in order. I'd like something that mimics the manipulations, weight, size, and if possible, the features and accessories of my current AR. I've done some research on the available platforms and a couple of issues arise;

1) Most CMMG kits lack a bolt old open, and the ones that do have a bolt hold open are problematic. This is a problem for me. This rifle is to be used as a dedicated trainer and not just for plinking.
2) I'd like dedicated hardware for this project. I'd rather not run 22lr through my current upper to limit wear and lead fouling.

So....options? I'm thinking right now that the M&P 15-22 might be decent. I know mag capacity is reduced, and it can't be changed to my current rifles specs, but it does offer very consistent manipulations and the weight is similar. Perhaps I'm missing an option? Suggestions?

Thank you in advance for any insights you may have on the topic. :)
 
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The Colt Umarex 22 is supposed to be a pretty good unit but a little pricey and restricted (if that matters).
As far as I know that and the M&P are the only options that are AR like as a complete rifle.
The Mossberg 22 is really cheap ($350) but other than looks I don't think it shares a lot of AR features. I could be wrong though since I haven't played with one of them yet.

Another option would be to get one of the 22 conversions that replace the BCG but like you said most don't have bolt hold open and the one I had was less than 100% reliable. A dedicated upper would be nice giving you a barrel with a correct twist rate for the 22LR and not fouling your gas tube with lead. But again the bolt hold open is rare.

Brass catcher and reloads could save you some money but I've noticed with mine that the potential savings are usually lost because you tend to buy more expensive projectiles and you spend a lot of time at the loading bench instead of at the range.

Good luck
Make sure you post what you decide to go with and give a report on how useful you think it is training with it instead of the AR and .223
 
You could always build up a 10/22 with an AR style kit. Check out the Troy T-22, Archangel 556 or Tapco Tactical Trainer. Obviously these will only mimic the size and feel of an AR and not overall function.
 
I have the Ruger SR 22 and should definitely be on your list as well. I was in the same dilemma as you and find that the SR is a well made little piece and, to me, seems like a 2/3s replica of my full size AR stuff. So maybe not a true .223 replacement for weight and feel but close enough to still be in the ball park, plus it's unbelievable how many mods and how much you can customize then, just like ARs and feed the obsession.
 
The op doesn't want a 10/22 because it doesn't operate like an ar15 just looks like one. Same goes for the colt m4, looks but doesn't function the same.

Drop in conversion bolts will just lead up your barrel and the rifling twist is not proper for .22 anyway.

A dedicated upper for your existing lower , or the mp15-22 is the way to go.

I have the mp and love it, functions perfect, it was much better when we had 25 round mags, but since it's a trainer you will want 10 rounds max anyway
 
I bought a dedicated 22LR upper a few years ago. Great fun, then it stopped working. The controls were close but no bolt release and last shot open was a function of the mag follower. The only benefit was using your AR lower. I would be careful of going this route.

As for the SR22. I've fired one and while I liked it I wouldn't recommend it for AR owners looking to practice. The controls are 10/22. When shooting you think you're shooting an AR. It's good. But that's where it stops as you fumble to hit your AR safety or palm the non existent bolt release. Clob is right on about it being useless for this purpose.

I would have to take a closer look at the MP-15 22LR. I dismissed the Uramax due to less than favourable reviews.
 
HK416 D in .22

Licensed to Carl Walther in Germany for production and imported by Umarex. Umarex also imports a Colt branded version of their full size AR's.


Fit and finish are top notch and it's accurate to boot. It's a dedicated .22 platform. The upper cannot be used on a full size AR lower, and likewise I do not believe the lower will take a conversion kit upper.

Here is a link to my HK in the rimfire section. There are other threads on the 416D as well.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?809578-Question-on-magazine-size-for-22LR


Umarex site:

http://www.hk22rimfire.com/

http://www.colt22rimfire.com/


Since buying mine I have only used .22 ammo specifically manufactured for use in AR style .22's Much cleaner burning and I after almost a 1000 rounds I have had no issues of fouling of FTF's, unlike my old Marlin Mdl 60 that I ran just about anything through and was always filthy at the end of day.

http://www.bulkammo.com/bulk-22-lr-ammo-22lr40grcprnccitact-375

The only issue I have ever had was with the plastic bumper that the back of the bolt recoils off of. Mine cracked in half after about 600 rounds. I ordered several as future replacements, as this is a weakness in my view. I thought about getting a small cutting board from the store and machining my own version out of that tough white material the boards are made of.
 
I recommend the M&P as a trainer.

I tried the BCG 22 swap, it worked, but it wasn't the same. It was also VERY buggie..... I was constantly frigging with it.....

When umarex and smith both came out with their 22lr guns a local club bought both so I had the advantage of trying both out for several range sessions.

I bought the M&P, it's not exactly the same, but it is close enough.

YMMV
Cheers!
 
I would recommend a dedicated upper, either build it up or buy a complete one.

I've gone both routes. I purchased a Chiappa upper and built up a 22lr franken-upper.

The Chiappa ran fine for awhile, at least a couple of thousand rounds through, but then the BCG came apart on me. Thankfully the dealer I bought it from replaced the BCG with no problems. The other thing with the Chiappa was that it doesn't have the BHO feature, not that much of a nuisance. I don't use this uppper much because of the worry with the BCG, hence the reason why I built up an upper.

I don't have much money laying around so I built up my upper as funds permitted. The parts I used are: CMMG conversion kit, CMMG 22lr barrel, CMMG BHOA, DD upper receiver, DD lite rail. <--- Would have cost the same if you bought an already completed upper. My upper will do the BHO if I use the CMMG mags with the mag follower conversion. It is my understanding that the new CMMG evolution mags do not need to be modified.

I participate in action .22 and I have not had one problem during last season using this set up.

Since the mags are identical in shape to the AR15 mags, I don't have to change my set up on my gear.
 
Clobbersauras said:
Thanks for the responses guys.

SATX, where did you pick up your Umarex 416?
Click to expand...

From a gun show in San Antonio, Texas. I just moved back in Aug. and mine is sitting in my gun safe at an in-laws across the border in NY with the rest of my collection while I get these things sorted out.

The other thing I didn't mention is about 4 months before we moved, I picked up a SSAR15 bump-fire stock and put it on the 416. Talk about fun. Had to sell that along with a bunch of prohibited weapons as well as a Gen 3A night vision scope I used to hunt feral hogs with. I was not allowed by the US, even as the original owner, to export the nv scope to Canada since it was Gen 3 or higher. :jerkit:

Here is what they are doing with the S&W MP15-22's down in the states with the SSAR15 stocks. The world has yet to come to an end because of it......:mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3dKvG3n3a8


Robbie is an idiot in this clip though. At about 3:50 into the clip, it shows him messing with the trigger guard and the rifle is loaded and the safety selector show it's on fire..... Major fail for someone of his experience.
 
Clobbersauras said:
1) Most CMMG kits lack a bolt old open, and the ones that do have a bolt hold open are problematic. This is a problem for me. This rifle is to be used as a dedicated trainer and not just for plinking.
2) I'd like dedicated hardware for this project. I'd rather not run 22lr through my current upper to limit wear and lead fouling.

So....options? I'm thinking right now that the M&P 15-22 might be decent.
Click to expand...
1) Actually the True Bold Hold Open is optional on MOST of the CMMG kits & uppers... They also have the option for a fulling functioning Forward Assist. Now, the ones that do not have the option for the True Bolt Hold Open have the last shot hold open using the magazines follower.

2) Get a dedicated upper... It's way better anyways. I recommend one of the dedicated CMMG uppers with stainless steel bolt (parkerized is okay... but, i prefer stainless), forward assist and bolt hold open adapters. The 16" & 18" barrels seem to be the most accurate. Keep in mind that the 16" barrel will give you the same OAL as you would have on a centerfire AR-15 with a 14.5" barrel. That is to say, the barrels sit into the receiver by 1.5" making the barrel length APPEAR to be shorter than it actually is. The other advantage to the dedicated uppers is that you can run them on any AR-15 lower AND they use mostly standard AR-15 parts (with the exception of the Bolt & Barrel) AND normal AR-15 accessory's will be compatible (Lets say you want a new trigger, or a new rail, or a magpul ASAP plate, Ambidextrous safety, or whatever accessory... It will work.

I personally own 3 of the CMMG uppers and I've got to tell you... I love them. I've also got custom built .22LR Uppers, i've got some of the cheaper uppers mentioned in this thread, etc... I shoot a lot of Rimfire (I go through thousands of rounds a month)... And unless you want to go 100% custom, a .22LR CMMG Upper is the way to go.



Lastly, the M&P 15-22 does not have a Functioning forward assist, it does not have a true bolt hold open (last i checked), it does not use as many standardized AR-15 parts, and it does not have the same weight as a normal AR-15.
 
Get in contact with Craftsman441. When he was in the AR game he made himself a dedicated .22lr AR rig. I am unsure what he did, but he is a wizard. Shoot him a PM, I am sure he can steer you in the right direction.

Good luck.

- Mac
 
NorCalDustin said:
Lastly, the M&P 15-22 does not have a Functioning forward assist, it does not have a true bolt hold open (last i checked), it does not use as many standardized AR-15 parts, and it does not have the same weight as a normal AR-15.
Click to expand...

-how often do you actually use a forward assist in training??
-it does have a bolt hold open, just like a real AR
-weight is much lighter for sure
 
NorCalDustin said:
1) Actually the True Bold Hold Open is optional on MOST of the CMMG kits & uppers... They also have the option for a fulling functioning Forward Assist. Now, the ones that do not have the option for the True Bolt Hold Open have the last shot hold open using the magazines follower.
Click to expand...

I can't speak from hands on experience but I do have a CMMG dedicated upper waiting for me in the US. The Bolt Hold Open Adapter and Forward Assist are both options that were worked into the configuration. I wanted to replicate my .223 as closely as possible and was advised by those with much more experience than me that this was the way to go. I'm going to further upgrade both the .223 and .22 uppers such that they will look and feel as close to identical as possible.
 
luke s said:
-how often do you actually use a forward assist in training??
-it does have a bolt hold open, just like a real AR
-weight is much lighter for sure
Click to expand...
The Forward Assist is used in press checks, loading the gun silently, its used to fully seat the bolt when things are getting really dirty (this being a good idea is debatable), and its used in immediate action drills.

As for the BHO on the M&P15-22... I'm guessing thats mostly new? Last one I played with was a model from late 2009 and there was no functioning BHO expect on the follower of an empty mag (so there was no BHO without a mag).. Very interesting... It almost brings it into the same realm as other stuff thats being made now.. Isn't Del-ton or someone like that doing a fully functioning upper like CMMG?
 
I think I'm pretty much sold on the M&P 15-22. The only "problems" with it being lighter weight, mag capacity, and lack of FA. Apparently it does take standard AR trigger components so I can adjust it to be similar to my AR. The barrel is also threaded 1/2 x28, not that it matters much. The mags are similar to AR mags so shouldn't have any problems using them in my various pouches. The barrel is longer than my current AR though. Now I just need to find a MOE version to match some of the furniture on my AR.

Here's a video of a goof with his 15-22, not a good video, but it does illustrate the BHO feature.

[Youtube]y5G6mHKJZhM[/Youtube]
 
Clobbersauras said:
I think I'm pretty much sold on the M&P 15-22. The only "problems" with it being lighter weight, mag capacity, and lack of FA. Apparently it does take standard AR trigger components so I can adjust it to be similar to my AR. The barrel is also threaded 1/2 x28, not that it matters much. The mags are similar to AR mags so shouldn't have any problems using them in my various pouches. The barrel is longer than my current AR though. Now I just need to find a MOE version to match some of the furniture on my AR.

Here's a video of a goof with his 15-22, not a good video, but it does illustrate the BHO feature.

[Youtube]y5G6mHKJZhM[/Youtube]
Click to expand...
I think that you are mad that you can not put a muzzle brake on it aren't you :p
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/uppers-22lr-uppers-c-147_218.html
[youtube]J-JAeTQGvZ4[/youtube]
 
NorCalDustin said:
The Forward Assist is used in press checks, loading the gun silently, its used to fully seat the bolt when things are getting really dirty (this being a good idea is debatable), and its used in immediate action drills.

As for the BHO on the M&P15-22... I'm guessing thats mostly new? Last one I played with was a model from late 2009 and there was no functioning BHO expect on the follower of an empty mag (so there was no BHO without a mag).. Very interesting... It almost brings it into the same realm as other stuff thats being made now.. Isn't Del-ton or someone like that doing a fully functioning upper like CMMG?
Click to expand...

Right forgot about loading silently (have never done this before).

I got mine in 2010. It holds it open on last round, change mag and slap the bolt release to chamber.

I know the colt m4 doesn't have a functioning one like that, but it's there for looks
 
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