notsorichguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- The city that rhymes with fun
I was in Regina on October 27th. I walked into TNT Gun Works and there it was, sitting on the shelf. I took a look at it, mounted it to my shoulder and I knew I had to take it home! 
I have been having naughty dreams about the Tavor since I saw it on Future Weapons a few yrs ago. I just couldn’t “pull the trigger” on one without at least holding it first..... There was no way I was going to drop $3K+ on a rifle without at least holding it!
There have been a few threads lately about the Tavor and more than one or two people wanting to know how accurate they are. Well since I am a newly minted acolyte of the cult I figured I would do a bit more testing (than normal) and take a few notes try and fill some of the gaps in on the Tav-21.
It came with a sling, manual, cleaning kit, back-up iron sights and a soft NcStar zipper case. To be honest I was expecting a bit more as far as a case goes, but the rifle fits, just, so how bad can it be...... I think I see another hard case in my future. Another Pelican I think would do the rifle justice!
Sling; dang it! I like it, it works. Sure it has some strings and ya actually have to tie knots to get it to work. I'll run it for a while. How bad can it possibly be?
Manual; it’s in English, it even has some pictures. Don’t bother reading it, check out the Tavor sticky, it’s much better!
Cleaning Kit; Multi-piece threaded steel cleaning rod (I use a bore snake instead and a Dewey rod) chamber brush (handy) and a big white French tickler type of a thingy that I can’t for the life of me figure out what it’s for..... Baby Bottle cleaner? Maybe...... It doesn’t fit into anything in the firearm. Unless of course it’s supposed to be used to clean the body of the rifle when you pull out the bolt assy.... But a tooth brush works waaaay better! That can’t be it, can it?
Edited to add;
The rifle has flip-up sights set into the top rail so it is beyond reason why they bothered with back-up flip sights on the full length rail. There is no name or model on the “extra” flip sights, but they seem to work. Just a note to the guys wanting to use them; Turn the rear sight so that it faces the right way, much less glare off the rear sight that way..... The really annoying thing about the extra back-up sights, you have to slide them off the rifle to the front and they are a bit on the tight side...... The factory sights and the extra ones supplied do work. Positive clicks etc. I found that they were as accurate at 25 & 50 as a red dot.
First off I mounted an Eotech 5.12, I had to take it off an AR, as I didn’t have a spare.... I left the back-up sights on the rifle as I wanted to test ‘em out. Then I tried it with-out the redundant back-ups, using the factory flip and the Eotech (it does co-witness). Then I tried the Burris PEPR scope mount (P&D ent.) with a Redfield 4-12x40 (again I had to cannibalize the scope off a different rifle). I’m really glad I got the QD mount. I have had it off 3 times and it still holds zero. I have another 4-12 on the way so I can leave this one in the PEPR rings. Same with the Eotech, on and off 3 or 4 times and still holding zero.
I had a bear of a time trying to bore sight the bugger..... 4” from centre of the bore to optic...... When I mounted the scope I propped the rifle up and made sure it wouldn’t move too easily and bore sighted it across the basement (approx 40’) by removing the bolt carrier so I could see down the barrel and adjust the scope accordingly. When I shot it after that it was 2” high at 25y. I adjusted the scope so that it was right on at 25y. Then I was only 6” high at 100......... I’m pretty sure that is the most rounds I’ve ever had to shoot to zero a “properly” securely mounted scope......
I have not had a single stoppage with it yet, I’ve tried multiple different mags with it as well. LAR-10’s, P-mags, Mil-spec aluminum mags (no manuf. name but they have Hartford CT stamped on them), C-products mags...... It doesn’t seem to care what I give it for a diet, reliability wise. The full length scope rail did start to loosen after the first 150 rnds, but I tightened it up and it is still solid on the rifle 400 rounds later.
I really wanted to do a proper bench test with this thing to see what it could do. Unfortunately I don’t have a range to visit since I moved to Swift (this may be the “real” reason I bought this thing). I am REALLY missing the ranges around Regina (not to mention shooting my ARs and pistols)...... So all accuracy tests are made with me leaning across the hood of my truck with both elbows braced on the hood of the truck and my (not unsubstantial) belly resting on the fender..... Picture a chubby middle aged guy draped across the hood of an early 90’s rusted out F-150 and you will have a fairly good mental picture...... I have a front rest and a rear bag for bench shooting, but it was designed for traditional rifles. The Tavor would have worked on the set-up but I would have needed a milk crate to stand on and a target set up 10y away to make it work..... Needless to say, I’m not terribly happy with my groups, but I know that my margin for error is about 2”, that’s how much the cross hairs moved on the target when I am trying to hold the rifle steady. I know it will do better off of bags, I am in the planning stages to make a proper rest. I could mount a bi-pod, but I don’t think it adds to the ### appeal of the rifle and it looks like it would get in the way if you wanted to actually put your hand on the forearm.....
All factory ammo was fired for groups on a cool day -4, wind from 3 o’clock at 20 to 25kmh. First ladder test was fired the same day. Second ladder test was fired today (or yesterday depending on when I get this posted) -7, wind from 9 o’clock 20 to 35 kmh, and it was snowing...... Not the best conditions for shooting for score, but I wanted to get it done, they are forecasting a ton more snow.... Crony was working for half the time on the first day (batteries died) and today I wasn’t able to get more than one shot to register in a string (if at all) it was giving some really weird readings. 1200 fps when it should have been over 3K......
All groups were measured from outside to outside of the hole. If you want centre to centre #s subtract .224.
So far ammo wise I have tried;
Winchester White box 55gr FMJ, - 10 shots 4.58” group FPS=??
American Eagle 55gr FMJ, - 10 shots 6.12” group FPS avg=2931 ES=106
Norinco white box (1600rnd case from Frontier) unknown bullet weight, - 10 shots 10” group FPS avg=3209 ES=110
Norinco Red box (CGN Member Saskcop) Unknown bullet weight, - 10 shots 9” group FPS avg=3143 ES 60
Norinco Yellow box (CGN Member Saskcop) Unknown bullet weight, - 10 shots 7.75” group FPS avg=3213 ES=74
MFS 55gr FMJ (SFRC), - 10 shots 5.95” group FPS=??
MFS 55gr HP (SFRC), - 10 shots 7.41” group FPS=??
Hand loads, 50gr PRVI SP over 25.5gr of Benchmark Win brass Fed Match primers – 10 shots 5.08” group FPS=?? Out of a 14.5” AR it is 3050 FPS
Ladder test with 50gr Nosler BT, New Win brass with Fed Match primers (see Below)
I also have some 75gr Swift Sicoro (sp?) (Doug Rayner) that I picked up just to try in the Tavor.
I have some 60gr Nosler BT on the way (Doug Rayner).
The nice guys at Wolverine had a couple of boxes of the Hornady 75gr ammo, so that is on the way to try out.
So far I have been unable to source some 60(ish) gr ammo...... If anybody has any they can spare I only need 10 rounds.....
I have a bolt gun that LOVES the Nosler/Benchmark/Win/GMM combo so I have a couple K of them, so I started there with a ladder test.
Ladder Test;
I started at 24.7gr and loaded 3 rounds at each level going up in .2gr increments up to 26.3gr.
Best loads were 25.9=2.37” @ 3204 ES 13 and 26.1=2.07 @ 3272 ES 8. 26.3 showed no pressure signs (Fed primers are really good for flattening when loads start to get hot)
So I decided to do a further test up to 26.9gr. (2nd day was much windier and I was a much poorer shooter) Unfortunately the Crony wasn’t co-operating, so I have no data on velocity.
I loaded up 5 rnds at;
25.9=3.62” group
26.0=2.45” group
26.1=3.75” group
3 rnds at;
26.3=2.06” group
26.5=4.18” group
26.7=2.74” group
26.9=1.40” group
26.9 still shows no signs of pressure. AFAIK 26.3 should be a max load for Benchmark in .223, but the chamber is 5.56 so I will likely do a 3rd Ladder up to 27.3 to see if the 2nd node is a good one.
Another note; 26.0 & 26.9 (from the second day) both showed the least vertical, under an inch. So I REALLY want to try these loads again when the wind isn’t gusting that bad. I can live with a steady wind, but the 10 to 35kmh gusts really make me doubt my abilities......
Needless to say test three will be on the back burner for a bit. We have a storm coming in and I know that I will be Working and/or Hunting for the next 4 weeks...... Unless I get lucky and Bambi’s grand dad shows himself early in the season. Then I may get out again before mid December, of course then it will be “silly season” so it may take until 2013 before I get a chance to shoot test 3....... I plan on waiting for the right conditions to do test 3 and I will re-test the factory ammo (with a proper rest) with the crony working. I should have some 75gr Super Performance by then (it was supposed to ship today) I will see what else I can scrounge up by then as well.
Cheers!
Now you’re going WTF! Where are the PICS!
Here ya go! Squint your eyes, they are shi**y cell phone pics. I can't afford a decent camera, I bought a Tavor instead!
More Pics;
http://s576.beta.photobucket.com/user/notsorichguy/library/Tavor
I have been having naughty dreams about the Tavor since I saw it on Future Weapons a few yrs ago. I just couldn’t “pull the trigger” on one without at least holding it first..... There was no way I was going to drop $3K+ on a rifle without at least holding it!There have been a few threads lately about the Tavor and more than one or two people wanting to know how accurate they are. Well since I am a newly minted acolyte of the cult I figured I would do a bit more testing (than normal) and take a few notes try and fill some of the gaps in on the Tav-21.
It came with a sling, manual, cleaning kit, back-up iron sights and a soft NcStar zipper case. To be honest I was expecting a bit more as far as a case goes, but the rifle fits, just, so how bad can it be...... I think I see another hard case in my future. Another Pelican I think would do the rifle justice!
Sling; dang it! I like it, it works. Sure it has some strings and ya actually have to tie knots to get it to work. I'll run it for a while. How bad can it possibly be?
Manual; it’s in English, it even has some pictures. Don’t bother reading it, check out the Tavor sticky, it’s much better!
Cleaning Kit; Multi-piece threaded steel cleaning rod (I use a bore snake instead and a Dewey rod) chamber brush (handy) and a big white French tickler type of a thingy that I can’t for the life of me figure out what it’s for..... Baby Bottle cleaner? Maybe...... It doesn’t fit into anything in the firearm. Unless of course it’s supposed to be used to clean the body of the rifle when you pull out the bolt assy.... But a tooth brush works waaaay better! That can’t be it, can it?
Edited to add;
The rifle has flip-up sights set into the top rail so it is beyond reason why they bothered with back-up flip sights on the full length rail. There is no name or model on the “extra” flip sights, but they seem to work. Just a note to the guys wanting to use them; Turn the rear sight so that it faces the right way, much less glare off the rear sight that way..... The really annoying thing about the extra back-up sights, you have to slide them off the rifle to the front and they are a bit on the tight side...... The factory sights and the extra ones supplied do work. Positive clicks etc. I found that they were as accurate at 25 & 50 as a red dot.
First off I mounted an Eotech 5.12, I had to take it off an AR, as I didn’t have a spare.... I left the back-up sights on the rifle as I wanted to test ‘em out. Then I tried it with-out the redundant back-ups, using the factory flip and the Eotech (it does co-witness). Then I tried the Burris PEPR scope mount (P&D ent.) with a Redfield 4-12x40 (again I had to cannibalize the scope off a different rifle). I’m really glad I got the QD mount. I have had it off 3 times and it still holds zero. I have another 4-12 on the way so I can leave this one in the PEPR rings. Same with the Eotech, on and off 3 or 4 times and still holding zero.
I had a bear of a time trying to bore sight the bugger..... 4” from centre of the bore to optic...... When I mounted the scope I propped the rifle up and made sure it wouldn’t move too easily and bore sighted it across the basement (approx 40’) by removing the bolt carrier so I could see down the barrel and adjust the scope accordingly. When I shot it after that it was 2” high at 25y. I adjusted the scope so that it was right on at 25y. Then I was only 6” high at 100......... I’m pretty sure that is the most rounds I’ve ever had to shoot to zero a “properly” securely mounted scope......
I have not had a single stoppage with it yet, I’ve tried multiple different mags with it as well. LAR-10’s, P-mags, Mil-spec aluminum mags (no manuf. name but they have Hartford CT stamped on them), C-products mags...... It doesn’t seem to care what I give it for a diet, reliability wise. The full length scope rail did start to loosen after the first 150 rnds, but I tightened it up and it is still solid on the rifle 400 rounds later.
I really wanted to do a proper bench test with this thing to see what it could do. Unfortunately I don’t have a range to visit since I moved to Swift (this may be the “real” reason I bought this thing). I am REALLY missing the ranges around Regina (not to mention shooting my ARs and pistols)...... So all accuracy tests are made with me leaning across the hood of my truck with both elbows braced on the hood of the truck and my (not unsubstantial) belly resting on the fender..... Picture a chubby middle aged guy draped across the hood of an early 90’s rusted out F-150 and you will have a fairly good mental picture...... I have a front rest and a rear bag for bench shooting, but it was designed for traditional rifles. The Tavor would have worked on the set-up but I would have needed a milk crate to stand on and a target set up 10y away to make it work..... Needless to say, I’m not terribly happy with my groups, but I know that my margin for error is about 2”, that’s how much the cross hairs moved on the target when I am trying to hold the rifle steady. I know it will do better off of bags, I am in the planning stages to make a proper rest. I could mount a bi-pod, but I don’t think it adds to the ### appeal of the rifle and it looks like it would get in the way if you wanted to actually put your hand on the forearm.....
All factory ammo was fired for groups on a cool day -4, wind from 3 o’clock at 20 to 25kmh. First ladder test was fired the same day. Second ladder test was fired today (or yesterday depending on when I get this posted) -7, wind from 9 o’clock 20 to 35 kmh, and it was snowing...... Not the best conditions for shooting for score, but I wanted to get it done, they are forecasting a ton more snow.... Crony was working for half the time on the first day (batteries died) and today I wasn’t able to get more than one shot to register in a string (if at all) it was giving some really weird readings. 1200 fps when it should have been over 3K......
All groups were measured from outside to outside of the hole. If you want centre to centre #s subtract .224.
So far ammo wise I have tried;
Winchester White box 55gr FMJ, - 10 shots 4.58” group FPS=??
American Eagle 55gr FMJ, - 10 shots 6.12” group FPS avg=2931 ES=106
Norinco white box (1600rnd case from Frontier) unknown bullet weight, - 10 shots 10” group FPS avg=3209 ES=110
Norinco Red box (CGN Member Saskcop) Unknown bullet weight, - 10 shots 9” group FPS avg=3143 ES 60
Norinco Yellow box (CGN Member Saskcop) Unknown bullet weight, - 10 shots 7.75” group FPS avg=3213 ES=74
MFS 55gr FMJ (SFRC), - 10 shots 5.95” group FPS=??
MFS 55gr HP (SFRC), - 10 shots 7.41” group FPS=??
Hand loads, 50gr PRVI SP over 25.5gr of Benchmark Win brass Fed Match primers – 10 shots 5.08” group FPS=?? Out of a 14.5” AR it is 3050 FPS
Ladder test with 50gr Nosler BT, New Win brass with Fed Match primers (see Below)
I also have some 75gr Swift Sicoro (sp?) (Doug Rayner) that I picked up just to try in the Tavor.
I have some 60gr Nosler BT on the way (Doug Rayner).
The nice guys at Wolverine had a couple of boxes of the Hornady 75gr ammo, so that is on the way to try out.
So far I have been unable to source some 60(ish) gr ammo...... If anybody has any they can spare
I only need 10 rounds.....I have a bolt gun that LOVES the Nosler/Benchmark/Win/GMM combo so I have a couple K of them, so I started there with a ladder test.
Ladder Test;
I started at 24.7gr and loaded 3 rounds at each level going up in .2gr increments up to 26.3gr.
Best loads were 25.9=2.37” @ 3204 ES 13 and 26.1=2.07 @ 3272 ES 8. 26.3 showed no pressure signs (Fed primers are really good for flattening when loads start to get hot)
So I decided to do a further test up to 26.9gr. (2nd day was much windier and I was a much poorer shooter) Unfortunately the Crony wasn’t co-operating, so I have no data on velocity.
I loaded up 5 rnds at;
25.9=3.62” group
26.0=2.45” group
26.1=3.75” group
3 rnds at;
26.3=2.06” group
26.5=4.18” group
26.7=2.74” group
26.9=1.40” group
26.9 still shows no signs of pressure. AFAIK 26.3 should be a max load for Benchmark in .223, but the chamber is 5.56 so I will likely do a 3rd Ladder up to 27.3 to see if the 2nd node is a good one.
Another note; 26.0 & 26.9 (from the second day) both showed the least vertical, under an inch. So I REALLY want to try these loads again when the wind isn’t gusting that bad. I can live with a steady wind, but the 10 to 35kmh gusts really make me doubt my abilities......
Needless to say test three will be on the back burner for a bit. We have a storm coming in and I know that I will be Working and/or Hunting for the next 4 weeks...... Unless I get lucky and Bambi’s grand dad shows himself early in the season. Then I may get out again before mid December, of course then it will be “silly season” so it may take until 2013 before I get a chance to shoot test 3....... I plan on waiting for the right conditions to do test 3 and I will re-test the factory ammo (with a proper rest) with the crony working. I should have some 75gr Super Performance by then (it was supposed to ship today) I will see what else I can scrounge up by then as well.
Cheers!
Now you’re going WTF! Where are the PICS!
Here ya go! Squint your eyes, they are shi**y cell phone pics. I can't afford a decent camera, I bought a Tavor instead!
More Pics;
http://s576.beta.photobucket.com/user/notsorichguy/library/Tavor
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