.57 snider, .577 snider

5

577/450

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I have a couple of these and the .577 is ok but the other is a carbine lenght and Iwas toold that it could be a.57 snider?? Found cartridge at gunshoww marked .57 snider, about 2/3 the length of the .577Has anyone got any info on this or where to go to get it?:confused:
 
The original .577" rolled Boxer case was about 1.95" long and had a base wad in the cartridge case and an over powder wad totalling about 3/8" in length. When manufacturers started makeing solid case .577" ctgs the case was greatly oversize for the powder charge. Some makers lined the case with cardboard to make up the excess space. Dominion Cartrige Co. (DCCo) shortened the case by about 3/8" and called it 57 Snider. This ctg is not a reduced load or "cadet" since it was loaded with 5 gr more powder than the service .577" ctg. This round was intended for use in Snider rifles and said so on the box and in catalogues from DCCo. DCCo never called it a cadet round.
 
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Green is correct , The 57 Snider as loaded by Dominion Arms( D.C. CO.) was a full power load and shorter case than original 577 loadings FYI they also had different 57 shot shell loadings over the years on the same DC case. At one time I had a collection of those ctgs, also the rolled brass original longer 577 ctgs with no head stamp. Back in the day I shot the DC rounds and they had kick. :) Interesting Green, I never did know why they were shorter.
 
i dont have th box's but i have seen some that where marked cadet i'll try to find some pics later (some of the guys on the british militaria fourms that shoot nothing but sniders call them cadet loadings)
 
Do some of you guys just read your own posts, Green stated facts, a shorter case stamped 57 snider D.C. Co is not a cadet round, it is a full power 70 gr. 485 gr bullet, BP load same as the original 577 coiled brass case was a 70 gr. load with I think a 480 bullet but bigger case capacity. I have already said I had a collection of those ctgs and two Sniders and shot the Dominion ammo Canadian Industries ammo. It was not a Cadet or pistol load. If there was a cadet load from Dominion, Iv'e never seen it.
 
its a good word of mouth over on british militaria that the shorter length rounds are cadet loads we are not saying the dominion rounds are loaded this way


also the .57 snider round made by dominion where only $65 with take for 1000 in 1937 quite a bit of money back then but still a ok deal if someone saved them till now
 
Well fair enough Antique guy, you got me there, don't know what the price was in 1937, I wasn't born till 47 so a little before my time. Here is a couple of pics of some old ammo and boxes from Dominion. Does any one have a Dominion CIL chart showing what the velocity was of the Smokeless 57 Snider loads shown on steyr1's post and NO they are not a cadet load, just curious if they were a higher velocity than the BP loads.

Near as I know a very early loading of 57 Snider shot shells, does not say BP but sure it was.

404844755.jpg


Here is a box that is exactly like the BP loads I shot many years ago but this box is shot shells.

404844754.jpg


Here is a shot shell loading not sure if it is BP or smokeless , In my collection I had several different ones , yellow, red and white cardboard, as well one I had was a longer shot card.

404844753.jpg


Here is the common head stamp, I remember for the Dominion-- CIL loadings however they used different primers

404844752.jpg


Here is a pic of the ammo I shot in the good old days -- 70 gr. BP and I think a 480 bullet.

404844751.jpg


Pics are courtesy of the net, I don't have any 577 stuff anymore. :(
 
antiqueguy:

There is a current discussion ongoing on British Militaria Forums on this very subject, and the consensus so far is that "cadet" is not a correct designation. In fact, it has been suggested that the term, as applied to these shorter cartridges, originated on BMF ..... but that doesn't make it correct, by any means! (As I recall, it was the long-time former forum member "Coyote" - an American - who first started using the term. In recent years it may have become a convenient way for people to differentiate this shorter loading from the standard-length Snider cartridge, but that certainly does not make it historically correct.

Please do post the photos of ammunition boxes bearing this name .....
 
Thank you Grant, that is the name, coyote, I was attempting to remember.
I am also waiting for the pics of the DCCo box labels with "cadet" labels.
 
Interestingly, this debate seems to be current in several places at once! Here is the most recent posting (yesterday, by "orange") on the International Ammunition Association forum:
I have been collecting Snider ammo and rifles for some time and I am a credited contributor to a book on the Snider. The first time I saw the DCCo 1 5/8 " 57 Snider ctg referred to as a "cadet" was on a US based web site on British military arms. I believe that an individual made an assumption on seeing a 57 Snider ctg that it was a "cadet" or carbine load similar to the US 50 carbine which was a shortened 50-70.
Click to expand...

Again, this comment is made specifically in relation to the DCC version (which I understand was by far the most prolific producer of the round) ..... however, I'm interested in seeing a "cadet" label from any manufacturer.


Any possibility it could be the pistol rnd
Click to expand...
Here is the much shorter .577 revolver cartridge alongside a .45ACP round for comparison:

577revolver_45ACP.jpg
 
577/450 -

It appears from your original post that your interest may be in trying to get a lighter load for shooting in your carbine-length Snider - if so, of course nobody really sells commercially loaded .577 ammunition, and the original rounds are too valuable as collector cartridges to consider shooting them off - if, indeed, they'd even be reliable .....

In the original military loadings, there never was a reduced "carbine" load for the .577 Snider. The chambers of the carbines were precisely the same as in the rifles, and thus the full-length rounds fit in them. Carbine users were apparently expected to just "suck it up" and shoot with the standard cartridge. (On the other hand, as you may be aware, the British found that they had no choice but to develop a "carbine load" for the even harder-kicking .577-450 Martini-Henry stock design, and in fact the actual issue of M-H carbines was delayed for more than a year after the carbine patterns had been approved, so the carbine load could be developed and put into production.)

Accordingly, if you simply want representative cartridges for display with your Sniders, the full-length cartridge is "correct" for all models. You could, of course, pick up an example of the shorter .57 Snider commercial loading to show what that sporting cartridge looked like.

On the other hand, if you want ammunition to shoot, that is pretty much a home reloading proposition. As an essentially straight-walled cartridge, the .577 Snider can be easily "downloaded" by simply reducing the charge of black powder - to say only 50 to 60 grains - and filling up the space between the top of the powder charge and the base of the bullet with a simple filler like corn meal or cream of wheat granules (..... dry and uncooked, of course! Believe it or not, someone not so long ago got this information from the internet and actually cooked the cereal up into mush .... then used it as a filler!)

As may have already been mentioned in this thread, if the shorter .57 Snider cartridges were consistently fired in any Snider (carbine or rifle) before it was "retired", fouling build-up in the area between the case-mouth and the throat of the chamber may have effectively reduced the length of the chamber, so that a normal-length cartridge will no longer chamber properly until the obstructing material is properly removed.
 
No one has yet posted a pic of a DCCo box label or DCCo catalogue on this or two other forums , International Ammunition Collectors or British Militaria Forums, showing a "cadet" designation for the DCCo 57 Snider ctg. This so called "cadet" name has been traced back to one individuals assumption on the BMF sight.
Myth busted.
 
green said:
No one has yet posted a pic of a DCCo box label or DCCo catalogue on this or two other forums , International Ammunition Collectors or British Militaria Forums, showing a "cadet" designation for the DCCo 57 Snider ctg. This so called "cadet" name has been traced back to one individuals assumption on the BMF sight.
Myth busted.
Click to expand...

again no one said DCCo
 
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