SR equipment discussion

Here are some unsolicited comments on SR shooting from an outsider (currently a TR shooter, formerly an F-Class shooter), for whatever they might be worth. I own an AR-15 and I once shot a Service Rifle match, but have never had the time to do more SR shooting. So I don't consider myself an SR shooter but I have very high regards for Service Rifle shooting and wish you guys all the best in growing and promoting it.

Here are what I think are some of SR's inherent strengths:

- you shoot 'cool' rifles. Many people own AR-15s and many more are quite interested in them. SR is a wonderful way to actually *shoot* these rifles and stretch their legs. I remember one beautiful Wednesday evening practice in Halifax (Bedford Range) plinking away at a Fig-11 target at 600 yards with a bone-stock AR-15 with iron sights. Could barely see the target and it seemed to shake all over the place as you took up the trigger and yet if you carefully fired a shot you hit the target almost all of the time. Truly a wonderful and rewarding experience.

- the accuracy requirements of the equipment are not nearly as stringent as in TR and F-Class. What I mean by this is that the targets' scoring zones are large, and the performance abilities of even very talented shooters in the standing kneeling etc positions are much larger than 1 MOA. So one can be reasonably and properly competitive with issue ammo and issue rifle or the commercial off the shelf equivalent, to an extent simply not possible in TR. While it's true that a topnotch serious competitor can and should do everything he is able to do in order to shoot the best he can, the fact is if I take my 2.5 MOA AR-15 out to a Service Rifle Match my score is going to be at least 99% composed of how well I am able to shoot under the various difficult and challenging conditions/positions involved in a Service Rifle match.

Some of SR's weaknesses:

- the physical challenge of the kneeling position and the rundown makes it various combinations of unfomfortable/unsafe/un-doable for a number of otherwise interested participants. I love the idea behind all of this and I think it would be a mistake to change this (even though I hate kneeling and I really suck at offhand). But this is something that deters participation.

- rightly or wrongly there is a perceived (from the outside) 'clubbiness' or insularity among SR shooters that is at least as bad as that exhibited by TR shooters. I don't know why this is or how it came to be, and all of the SR shooters I know are good people and good shooters who I like and get along well with. But somehow, something is being done wrong that is deterring outsiders from getting close and participating. I don't know if this is a solvable problem, and if so how it might be done. Barbecues? Shooting/coaching clinics? Equipment clinics (a la Hungry)?
 
rnbra-shooter said:
- rightly or wrongly there is a perceived (from the outside) 'clubbiness' or insularity among SR shooters that is at least as bad as that exhibited by TR shooters. I don't know why this is or how it came to be, and all of the SR shooters I know are good people and good shooters who I like and get along well with. But somehow, something is being done wrong that is deterring outsiders from getting close and participating. I don't know if this is a solvable problem, and if so how it might be done. Barbecues? Shooting/coaching clinics? Equipment clinics (a la Hungry)?
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Just advertising what SR is and that it's actually happening would go a long way towards getting people out. I'm only here because I stumbled across the forum. Hungry-style clinics for n00bs would really work too, for bringing in the guys who're sitting on the fence or who're not sure their skills are up to snuff.
 
Yeah, somebody should do a podcast on the topic. LOL.

Actually that is the reason behind Canadian Service Conditions Radio. Get the word about Service Conditions and get more people involved. I happen to think the ORA is doing a good job in promoting the sport as evidenced by the sell out attendance at the matches.

It would also be great if more organizations would get involved in organizing events. Currently as far as I know we have BCRA, ORA, Milcun/OSA, NCRRA*, NSRA offering SR events. Three of those are in Ontario which means there is a lot of Canada that has nothing right now....but that can be fixed.

SR is a bit steep in terms of knowledge base and logistical aptitude to organize events. CQB is a lot simpler and more accessible. Hungary is doing well (IMO) in getting out to host clinics and get the word out. It is my hope that eventually other areas will be able to start hosting their own events. This can then lead to persons interests in SR. I really is a unique shooting sport with challenges that are different than any other I have participated in.

* EDIT: Review of the NCRRA website shows practices for the "Service Rifle Section". There does not seem to be mention of matches. It's not been updated since 2011 so I have no idea if this is still current or not.
 
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If any organization would like to create a well organized schedule for their matches/practices/clinics for the season, we will gladly make it a sticky at the top of the forum. It should be limited to service related events (CQB/SR/SP). ORA has one for this year's SR and CQB posted at the top of the forum, if you would like an example. Those are what bring most people to the matches. Its how they find out about them.
 
Bolivar said:
SR is a bit steep in terms of knowledge base and logistical aptitude to organize events. CQB is a lot simpler and more accessible. Hungary is doing well (IMO) in getting out to host clinics and get the word out. It is my hope that eventually other areas will be able to start hosting their own events. This can then lead to persons interests in SR. I really is a unique shooting sport with challenges that are different than any other I have participated in.
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SR is not that hard, it just looks hard. Sometimes the discussion here make it sound like you have to know a lot to shoot SR.
 
I was referring to organization of the event, not participation.

Participation is easy, you are correct. Show up with a rifle, mags, ammo (+ whatever else the orgaizer recommends/requires) and a good attitude - follow the directions of the MD/Firing point officer/butts officer, shoot the middle of the target. That's it in a nut shell.
 
Remember that after a weekends training and zero live fire you can get a license and buy a gun.
Everything is hard for the newbie who can't zero his own rifle.

I am getting the impression that clinic, and intro are good words for marketing.
 
I think clinics and intro also serve as a less formal way to get into it. There are so few matches that the first time someone might attend a match could be at the bc championships (out west anyway) which might sound like a bigger deal than it really is. You can tell people all you want that everyone is great and inviting, but I think some people would feel like they are being thrown in the deep end and be less inclined to join up.

Personally I've been scouring all the bcra websites to try and find as many events as I can to attend. Can someone clarify how many matches per year there usually are out west? Whenever I listen to the service conditions podcast it sounds like they have a decent number of matches out east, but I've only found mention of 3 out west (nanaimo/May 25, lower mainland/June 1-2, and kamloops/?)
 
Gunnerlove said:
Remember that after a weekends training and zero live fire you can get a license and buy a gun.
Everything is hard for the newbie who can't zero his own rifle.

I am getting the impression that clinic, and intro are good words for marketing.
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Yes, that does help a great deal. Even if a person gets a chance to get zeros back to 500 yards, and assistance to do so as needed, it's a big help. If a person hasn't shot to 500 yards before (or past say 100 at club) then that distance can seem very intimidating. It is also good if people can get some instruction on shooting position, prone, kneeling and standing from somebody who knows how to teach it. Give the newbie something they can work on at home in dry fire or at a local range and remove the pressure of competition from their first experience.
 
kombayotch said:
If any organization would like to create a well organized schedule for their matches/practices/clinics for the season, we will gladly make it a sticky at the top of the forum. It should be limited to service related events (CQB/SR/SP). ORA has one for this year's SR and CQB posted at the top of the forum, if you would like an example. Those are what bring most people to the matches. Its how they find out about them.
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Not to be harsh or anything, but if the aim is to get new shooters interested in SR, advertising outside the clubhouse might be a more effective way of doing it. I'd be surprised if the SR forum gets much traffic beyond SR shooters (I'm only here because I thought at first it might be milsurp-related), or if more than a small minority of CGNers even knew what SR was. But I'd bet that there'd be a lot of interest if somebody tried to change that.

On another note, and speaking of milsurps, I gather that No. 4 Mk 1's are welcome and that there's a separate prize for bolt action shooters? What about other military bolt actions like the K31?
 
CQB is only advertised in here, and the turnout is huge. Out of all of the disciplines advertising in this and the precision forum above, its the discipline that I get the fewest PMs about asking me where info about matches can be found. No, this probably isn't where people hear about it for the first time. It gets talked about it in other forums, after which people come to the competition forums to look for match dates and other information. When they do, all of the information they need is laid out in a clear and simple format. They don't have to go on an Easter egg hunt on the PRA's convoluted website to find it. They don't have to sift through a list of matches that includes various other disciplines, where the titles of the matches don't give any indication of what discipline shoots that match. When they come to look in the forum for info, its all in that post, and only info relevant to that discipline is presented in its section. When they come to the forum, they also find a ton of Bolivar's after action reports with photos and videos. If you want people to come to your matches, putting the information they need to know in order to participate in a simple and easy to find format is a great first step.

NSCC/OSA has a separate bolt class.
 
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Rangers shoot CFSAC with their No. 4s. There are separate aggs and prizes.
I know that NSCC has been shot with a K98.
 
"The University Cup and plaque are awarded to the competitor who obtains the highest aggregate score in Stage One (Matches 1-16) with a bolt-action rifle."

Boltguns must have a trigger pull of 1.5 Kg. Boltguns can load more than 5 rds. in their mags.
 
Gunnerlove said:
Remember that after a weekends training and zero live fire you can get a license and buy a gun.
Everything is hard for the newbie who can't zero his own rifle.

I am getting the impression that clinic, and intro are good words for marketing.
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The clinic is pretty useful for many new shooters. We are talking about the basic "operating" skills of semi automatic rifles and getting to know the "ground" + how the targetry operates. Lots of skills that are taken for granted by experienced shooters need to be taught to the new people. I have seen people who, appeared to be gun enthusiasts with lots of cool toys and in full multi-cam, could not properly carry out IA in a SR match. And then there are other A-holes in uniform next to them yelling and telling them to to do the wrong drills.....I have seen ESL guys who could not understand basic English range commands. The clinic is a great way to get some of these things out of the way, and make the matches more enjoyable (instead of getting stressed out)

Remember, lots of people have never shot "collectively" in a SR setting. Lining up and firing at numbered targets is a new thing to many who have only either shot in the bush with a few friends or in formal gun clubs.
 
beltfed said:
The reason NSCC is poorly attended (aside from maybe local Ontario and CF shooters) is that there is piss poor backing of Service Conditions shooters at the PRA level (at least nearly all of them).
Speaking of our experience in Alberta, the Service Conditions club was run out of the APRA due to in-fighting with the Full Bore group. That is fact, and that in-fighting predates my time with them that started 10 short years ago.
I (and most other people interested in service conditons) am at a point where I want nothing to do with my provincial body, and that provincial body wants nothing to do with service conditions.
I once organized a team to attend the NSCC from Alberta. Despite being low numbers (I had a motorcycle crash a month prior and others couldn't arrange time off work), It was aided by the generosity of a fellow SR competitor and Regimental brother (thanks again JR and the Shooting Edge). it was NOT aided in any way, shape or form by my PRA.

You guys want NSCC well attended and Service Conditions back where it should be? Re-vamp the PRAs is where you have to start (or start another set of bodies that take SR away from the control of the DCRA and the PRAs).
As long as I need to be a member of my PRA to belong to and shoot DCRA competitions, it's not going to happen (at least living in Alberta - it seems they are more interested in serving their own interests in shooting styles that have nothing to do with DCRA programs...)
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Absolutely!

Even when the competitors are trying to bring issues up and fix things, so shooting can flourish, especially service rifle, it gets censored. Even here because of some mythological "court action".

It's amazing what lies can be told, to cover up underhanded actions.

We didn't need Service Rifle in Alberta, anyway.

Shooters are our own worst enemies.
 
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Gunnerlove said:
Screw the DCRA they can do what they want I am going to start selling out island matches and practices.
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I love coming over to the Island to shoot.
However, Island and Kamloops regional are on the same weekend last couple of years, Kamloops is logistically simpler. I'm all for more shooting.

In review I have found that Kamloops advertises their match with a flyer format. Would distribution to gun shops and ranges possibly increase participation?
Can't say as Ive ever seen BCRA flyer? Input?
 
Without a doubt advertising is on the list.

Keeping at minimum monthly practices going all year is also on the list. Two months of shooting before provincials? We can offer a better product than that.

The Service Rifle season should run all year on the West coast as winter is not a real issue.
If everything was running right (looking at every other sport) you would need to shoot your regional to try to qualify to attend the provincial championship so having all the regionals on the same weekend wouldn't be a bad thing.
We currently do and allow certain things because our numbers and attendance have been so low for decades. But by doing so we removed some of the rewards for shooters like being able to say "I qualified for provincials" "I qualified for Nationals" and the goal of getting to the next level was lost to new shooters. Qualifying for provincials makes you a provincial level competitor, qualifying for nationals makes you a national level competitor.
Walking in off the street makes us participants.

I do not think it can happen in a year or two but by the end of the decade we should be able to build something to be proud of.
 
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