Luger questions

[Tom E Gun]

Hi all;
I have always thought I would like to start a collection of WWII firearms. I have a chance to purchase a refinished, numbers matching 4 1/4" barrel, restricted Luger. Can anyone enlighten me on the value, history, and pitfalls of lugers? Are there specific questions I should be asking, etc. Has the refinishing reduced the value? All advice appreciated.

The one I am interested in is described by the seller as: "it is a 1939 42 mfg"

Cheers

 

[Steve1987]

The Luger you're considering has little value as a collectible since it's been refinished.

If the price is right, it would be a representation of a Luger you could use at the range without risking damaging an original.

Unless you have 12.6 it's difficult to find a collector grade Luger for a WWII collection.

If you're seriously thinking about collecting WWII firearms, I would start with some books on the subject. It's just far too vast of a topic for us to discuss here in your thread.

I would suggest starting out by looking for a nice numbers matching original finish P38, they are available on the EE somewhat regularly.

Cheers,
-Steve

 

[smellie]

Okay, it was made in 1939 by the Mauser plant.

As far as I am concerned, the rework is very pretty but has taken away a part of its history. My own Lugers are all original...... and they are all PROHIBITED in this execrable excuse for a Free Country in which we live at this time. I am NOT happy, you might say.

YOU have excellent TASTE, friend.

But this is your chance to own one with a NEW barrel. The design is unaltered, that fabulous quality of machining is still there, it WAS there and much of that has com down to you with it.

As to shooting the critters, they have a reputation for being unreliable. I find that 98% of this is down to 2 factors: magazines and the stuff in them.

The Luger likes a fairly-stiff loading, so don't load too light or you will get short cycles.

The Magazine should lock up tight into the gun. You should hear the Mag Release click into position JUST as the Magazine stops moving upward. They were hand-fitted at the factory to this standard.

You have a Wood-bottom Magazine, which usually indicates a Magazine made of folded sheet-steel. These work well but can be damaged if they are slammed around. Of course, any Luger is a piece of precision equipment, so, likely, you will not be slamming it around. Try to find a couple of the later wartime EXTRUDED Magazines; these are very robust.

The Luger has an odd "feel" when you fire it: kick back, bounce DOWN, muzzle flips UP, DOWN, gun comes back UP, muzzle DIPS, flips back UP and stabilizes and all in about 1/20 of a second! NOTHING else feels quite like it.

For FAST target acquisition, throw the gun up and toward the target with your trigger finger ALONGSIDE the trigger housing, then slip your finger back onto the trigger and press. You can instinctively POINT at something and the Luger grip angle is the same as the angle between your index finger and the palm of your hand: it was designed for very fast POINTING but it is also capable of very fine precision shooting.

There is a legend that Lugers have a "mushy" trigger pull. This is NOT true. The Luger has a true TWO-STAGE trigger just like a Gew 98 or a Lee-Enfield. This is part of the reason that they can be made to shoot so VERY well.

Be sure that you get a Magazine Loader with it. This is just a little combination tool with a screwdriver and a thumb-rest on it..... and a hole. You hook the hole over the Magazine Button and draw it downward as you pop the rounds into the Magazine: fast and easy and saves IMMENSE wear on the thumb!

Dry-firing Lugers is NOT recommended, the tip of the Firing Pin being awfully hard. Many of the actions, however, will sit with the toggle just up from firing position; if your gun will do this, then you can dry-fire it like this with no damage possible. Whether or not a gun will do this is dependant upon the internal balancing of springs and toggle weight. If your gun will not do this, then you can dry-fire safely with snap-caps which cushion the firing-pin strike.

If you get as much enjoyment out of this one as I got out of my first one, you can bet your bottom dollar it will NOT be alone for very long!

DO enjoy!

Very nice piece!

Hope this helps.

 

[Tom E Gun]

Thanks to both of you for the information, it is greatly appreciated. Would you be able to give a rough guess as to what a rebarreled and refinished Luger like this is actually worth?
Cheers

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

As a Restricted Luger it is in its own category. The refinishing will detract compared to a Prohibited in original condition. I would compare it to other wartime 9mm semi-autos that go to the range on any ATT. How much is a German P38 worth, or a Polish Radam, or a Belgian WWII Browning? I personally would not pay above $500 for that one, for all the reasons Smellie explained.

 

[Tom E Gun]

Thanks for the advice.

 

[smellie]

The thing is, you CAN'T own one in original condition unless you have that magical 12.6 on your PAL.

This leaves you looking for an original Swiss ($3k and upward) or one of those super-rare ones made in tiny numbers for very small countries which were (largely) over-run by the forces of International Good Will, Liberation, Socialism and A Free Gulag For Everyone. Even most Commercials, rare as they are, were made to the 08 spec: 4-inch barrels. Navies and Artilleries are not cheap, either, nor are original Finns, so this is about the best you are going to do.

Myself, I know very little about "values". To me, this is entirely subjective. As well, it is governed by the fact that I have spent most of my life without a large amount of money to put into my toys. I am on the Old Age Pension right now and regard myself as comparatively rich, so that does not say a lot. My "collection" looks more like a scrapyard but I have learned a great deal from it.

So the question becomes, rather: what is it worth to YOU to own the finest semi-automatic handgun ever made, freshly rebuilt with a NEW barrel?

It SHOULD be worth at least as much as one of these modern PLASTIC guns. For one thing, the FRAME will not be weakened by sunlight, even after 100 years.

And it has a lot more CLASS.

Personally, I would lust after such a creature if I did not already have a minty 1916.

My 2 nickels.

 

[JRW (QOR)]

Luger..... I'd sell my soul for one...

 

[Tom E Gun]

The thing is, you CAN'T own one in original condition unless you have that magical 12.6 on your PAL.

That is really the crux of the problem, and why I was so undecided. While a refinished Luger is less desirable/collectible, since a Canadian restricted model will (by default) have a non-original barrel, the non-standard finish is almost irrelevant. However the deciding factor for me was that the consensus seems to be that this would be a good "shooter" rather than a good "collector". However I am not really looking for a "shooter" and want something that will appreciate in value over time. Given that, and the $1200 asking price and I decided to pass.

Thanks for the help, it is really appreciated.

 

[drm3m]

Tom,

Luger collectors are a bit of a strange breed......
True collectors tend to be purists and if anything is out of sorts they tend to walk the other way.

There is a big difference between a collecter Luger and a shooter Luger.....it depends on where you want to fit in......or where the particular pistol will take you.

Homework is definitely required as well as some serious soul searching on the subject of purchasing these types of pistols.

My suggestion is if you do not have a 12(6) catagory forget about about purchasing a Luger for investment purposes.
The longer barrel does not cut it for a collector particularly on a refinished gun.

David

 

[dogzilla]

Also because of our prohib status crap, you will never get true value for your collectable luger because of the limited market. You would have to sell it in the states. They are absolutely nuts about lugers, and there are so many variations that there are books devoted exclusively to lugers and the various proof marks, dates of manufacture, and factories of origin. I have a near mint American Eagle luger with original holster which will be getting buried with me (at atop secret location). It's over 100 yrs old and is a work of art (and restricted not prohib),and yes I have fired it although very sparingly. And the pictures don't begin to do it justice.

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[smellie]

Beautiful Eagle there, DOGZILLA!

As to your PLAN, I swear I didn't hear a thing!

Nevertheless, I buy my guns to SHOOT. If they go up in "value", then I have won (something); if they go DOWN in "value", I write it off to wear and tear.

So far, I am "up" on the $27.95 Kar 98k, on the $106 Gew 98, on the $106 "black" Kar 98b, on the new $275 Garand, the $75 Snider Cavalry Carbine, the $150 Nova Scotia Snider Mark III, the $8.50 Ishapore SMLE (1943 III*) and several others. They are NOT going to go below what I paid for them.

I would think that "investment" is not much of a reason for purchasing a fine firearm; it smacks too much of white cotton gloves, not enough of the solid "snap!" as the toggle slaps forward the top round in the magazine. "Investments" live in bank vaults and humidity-controlled "specimen rooms"...... and the people who own them never get the simple pleasure of USING them as they were intended to be used.

Pity.

They can be SO much fun.

 

[drm3m]

With all due respect smellie.

These examples were purchased many years ago:

"So far, I am "up" on the $27.95 Kar 98k, on the $106 Gew 98, on the $106 "black" Kar 98b, on the new $275 Garand, the $75 Snider Cavalry Carbine, the $150 Nova Scotia Snider Mark III, the $8.50 Ishapore SMLE (1943 III*) and several others. They are NOT going to go below what I paid for them."

'Tom E Gun' was asking whether $1,200 was a reasonable price to pay for a restricted, refinished shooter Luger.
I don't think it is worth $1,200.
I think he was wise to drop it.

For collectors who have been around for a long time dealing with the values of the past we have to remember where they are now.

I paid approx $50 each back in 1971 for the two revolvers shown below.
Present value $3,000-5000 perhaps in the U.S. because they are correct.

One of the things that I find surprising is how Enfields like the one shown below in supurb condition might be worth only $600. (BSA 1945 dated purchased in the early 1970s for $125...I think)

The values depend on the particular gun...its condition and the collector appetite for that type of gun IMHO.

On another note;

Both of the Lugers shown below have two matching magazines.
If these pistols were in the U.S. the values might range between $5,000-$5,800 each.
If they had to be exported into the U.S. from Canada with import markings the game 'could change' substantially. American collectors 'generally' do not want these stamps.

The earlier days of the Third Reich.

David

 

[RedRabbits]

My suggestion is if you do not have a 12(6) catagory forget about about purchasing a Luger for investment purposes.
The longer barrel does not cut it for a collector particularly on a refinished gun.

David

what about a Navy Luger, they have longer barrels and cool 200m sights?

 

[David K]

... Having owned a couple of Luger's in the past. One of the issues of them NOT firing/functioning properly, is the build up of grease/dirt in the "Breech Block" and around the firing pin itself. ( slow, and sometimes worn out, leading to an inadequate firing pin strike) ..... Otherwise, as previously mentioned, they tend to prefer a slighter stiffer load, for reliable functioning. ..... Definitely fun guns to shoot,triggers leave a lot to be desired, and definitely landmark design and engineering/machining. ...... David K

 

[Imperial luger]

Navy lugers especially from the Imperial German time period command big bucks, not only are you entering into the deep pocket world of luger collecting you best know your stuff big time. If some of you fellows think 1200 for a reblued converted luger is steep hang onto your shorts,1200 would not even buy you a true blue naval holster of the Imperial time frame.

Yes cool with the two position rear sight but also highly boosted,enhanced and downright faked. tread carefully in this area.

 

[RedRabbits]

Yes cool with the two position rear sight but also highly boosted,enhanced and downright faked. tread carefully in this area.

That is unfortunate, nobody likes spending big money on a fake. I always thought Navy Lugers were wicked cool and I'm well aware of their rarity and extreme pricing, I guess I should have studied law or medicine...

 

[Nabs]

I have a 1914 dated Luger with a restricted barrel. I'm fortunate that this barrel is just on the restricted limit for barrel length so it still fits in an original holster. I got her a reproduction holster so I don't risk scuffing up an original hoslter while at the range.

The original front sight blade was kindly re-used on this barrel as well. She shoots very well at the range and tends to like European 9mm Luger commercial ammo over North American brands.

I have my eyes out for an artillery luger but they are out of my price range right now.

 

[smellie]

@drm3m:

You are quite right, of course; we both started back in "the old days". I always liked military, partly because you could get more bang for the buck (and bucks were scarce), partly because of the almost-infinite technical and mechanical variety, all of which worked. At that time, $25 was far too much to put into ANY Snider although it would do for a minty 98k. As it is, "values" have gone up by a factor of 40 for the 98, 30 for the Snider. The $15 Ross also is up 40 times and is hitting 60 times, now that people understand just how few are left. MUCH of this is due to inflation. Garands are up 20 times, which is about double inflation, Argy SAFNs have kept pace plus and Johnsons are no longer $35: a good Johnson is up 50 times, which is about 5 times inflation.

But most people look at the Dollar as fixed (although it is not) and, in this light, 1200 might be high TODAY for a very pretty refurb Luger, but it may not be next year. We Old Farts are dying off; in another 15 or 20 years the best guns in the country all will have gone to Stelco or Dofasco. THEN what does a guy do who wants a Luger? Remember, none of the above are in current production!

I repeat, "Value" is entirely SUBJECTIVE. It is not, never has been, a constant, else everyone would be using a single type.

So how much is it worth TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER to be able to go to the range with the nicest semi-auto pistol ever built?

The answer will be different for every person reading this.

 

[tacfoley]

Get yourself onto www.lugerforum.com and learn more than your brain can take in a day.

Here in yUK I had an all-matching 1918 DWM military since 1971 and an all-matching byf42 - the last full year of production at Mauserwerke.

Both had to be deactivated back in 1998 so that I could keep them. It broke my heart to do it, but I still have them.

Whatever you have to do in Canada, get yourself a P08, and shoot the Walmart white box stuff in it, if you can get that where you live - it's what most P08s seem to like.

tac