Swiss K11 Carbine - Seeking More Info Please!

Drachenblut

Drachenblut

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Hello,

Here's one for Diopter, or anyone into Swiss Rifles!

My closest friend and fellow gun-nut bought me this beauty for Christmas, and finally got it sent out to me!

Upon opening the box, I began delving into the history of this arm, stripping and cleaning it.

I am seeking to learn as much information on this particular carbine/short rifle, and would love some help filling in the blanks/gaining more information. Possibly tracking down the previous owner/family in Switzerland who had this carbine would be a dream come true! Here is what I know thus far, please correct me if I am incorrect on any information here!:

A Karabiner Model 1911, converted from either a Model 1889/1900 Short Rifle or a Model 1905 Cavalry Carbine. Not sure which. The serial number of 10805 places it as an early 1915 conversion, with 8000 being converted that year between serial numbers 9001 and 17000.

Everything matches the serial number except the magazine, the bolt matches and has Bakelite handle grips. The magazine being a different serial, I am told this is quite a common occurence?

It retains the brass "floating ring" at the fore end of the wood. This was very green/corroded when I received it. I assume the carbine had not been taken down and cleaned for a long long time. The bore is in excellent shape.

Under the serial number on the side of the reciever is a capitol "P". I understand this means it was bought out of service by the serviceman when he finished his mandatory/voluntary military service?
The marks on the top of the receiver I am unsure of and would like some clarification as to meaning!

The side of the butt bears a sticker I have tried to trace, the closest I can get is some sort of Wrestling Club in Conthey, Switzerland. Not sure how that relates to firearms... perhaps a prize for a competitive winner?

Under the buttplate I discovered a tag! It seems to be marked to:

Christian Stauffer (Staupfer?)
Mèbre, 1033 Cheseaux-sur-Lausanne,
In the Canton of Vaud,
Switzerland

Any chance/method you guys know how to contact this fellow/family etc? Is it even possible?

Here are some pictures, I could provide more upon request, to help obtain info!

Thanks, enjoy and any info is helpful!
Sincerely,
Drach

P3090002.jpg

P3090001.jpg

P3090004.jpg

P3090005.jpg

P3090007.jpg

P3090011.jpg

K11ButtTag.jpg
 
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Nice catch!
Unlikely that Christian would still be alive, but family is a big possibility.

http://tel.search.ch/?name=Stauffer,+christian#pos10

Seems you're doing an excellent job of researching your new aquistion without my help. Post the pictures on the Swiss Rifle Message Board also and i'm sure Guisan and Parashooter will make a contribution or two.

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageb...e=0&beforeafter=after&orderby=relevance&boxes[]=5&boxes[]=7&boxes[]=15&submit=search&advanced=1

Seems to be a 1907 production K89/90 convert.
Can you post pictures of the entire bolt and the bottom of the mag? Are there four square holes in the floor of the mag?

Swiss are into many hobbies and sports.
We have quite a few who do both Swiss wrestlling and shooting in our club, and would not mind advertising one interest while doing another.
http://www.lutte-martigny.ch/

Jass(card game) is another.
 
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Diopter,

Many thanks for the information! How did you figure the date of manufacture and original type?

I will post the pictures up tomorrow as requested, thanks for the help! I'll see about getting pics up to the Swiss Rifle Board Forum as well. The magazine is not matching to the rest of the carbine, please note.

Cheers for now,
Drach
 
There is a website for the dates as associated to the serial numbers for the K31. Google "dating a K31 by serial number" and you'll find it. On my phone or I'd find it and post. It may also include info on the K11 series.
 
Intriguing, by those original sources you quote, Diopter, it seems my K11 started life as an 89/90 Kurze Gewehre. Made in the first week if not certainly month of January, 1907 (my serial number being only 4 off from the first produced that year)

I cannot seem to find where in what rifle production my magazine was in. Seems all the numbers above start past 330###? *Correction* From my research it seems to be from a 1908 produced 1889/96 Repetiergewehre... can anyone confirm this?

Here are the pictures you requested, sorry for the blurriness, my camera is ancient!

5.jpg

2.jpg

1.jpg

4.jpg

3.jpg


Hope that helps you out! Thanks for the info thus far!
 
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Serial # 330179 would have come from an 1908 production 96/11.

96/11 serials went from #1 in 1895 to 349000 in Nov.1912

1911 long rifles from #355001 in 1912 to 4822000 in Oct 1919

K11 went from #30001 in 1914 to 215100 in 1933

K31 from #520010 in 1933 to 999999 in 1953, and then from
215001 in 1953 to 26330 in 1958.
Higher Serial # K31 serial do exist.
 
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Diopter,

Many thanks! Good to know that info. How common are tags under the buttplate, in any regard? Is it common for magazines to be swapped/not matching?

One more question, is it safe to fire GP11 Surplus in this Karbine I have?

I posted up on Swiss Rifle Boards, as you suggested. She's a lovely piece of history!
 
Gp11 is fine in that rifle. That's what the the conversion was for after all.

Out of Curiousity, where did you get the reference of
"early 1915 conversion, with 8000 being converted that year between serial numbers 9001 and 17000."?
 
Drachenblut said:
Hi Diopter,

I got the info from this page: http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/schmidt_rubin.html

About 8/10ths down the page, under manufacture dates and serial numbers: "Model 1911 Carbines (Karabiner)
Converted from Model 1889/1900 Short Rifles and Model 1905 Cavalry Carbines"
Click to expand...

I think you stumbled upon an error on that site. I'll check when I get home, but I don't recall seeing that in any Swiss Source.
Usually convert whichever were close at hand first, then sent in from around the country.
Even the Swiss would not be anal enough to do conversions by serial number order.
 
An answer from Guisan.

"It's in older postings here, that is wrong in the books (in CH also), they are not serials, they are the numbers that were modified that year. The K00/11's kept their original serials like the one above and the K05/11 serials were all raised to the 20.000 serial range by adding number(s) ahead of the original serial number.
The 05 with the serial 1 was changed into 20001 etc that is why you won't find these low serials in the K11 serial/year listing."
 
Ah, so technically I do not know when it was really converted over, but I DO know it was originally made as a 1900 Short Rifle in 1907 as per the actual original production number. Am I correct in that?
 
Great, thanks. Makes a lot of sense. Now, on the Swiss Rifle Forums, Guisan mention the "P" mark below my serial number does not mean it was taken home/bought out of service. What does it mean then? In what case does a P mark, if at all, mean such?
 
Question of being literal. English is his third or fourth language.

When you wrote "bought", it implied the ex-soldier had to pay for it to the Army.
The soldiers were offered them, at no charge, with any further maintenance cost to be incurred by the individual.
The P also means out of Army inventory.

As for the Brass expansion ring around the barrel near the sight, they were not supposed to try to clean them.
Too easy to damage and that might cause binding again the barrel.
Imagine guys scrapping verdigris off them with their pocket knives?
 
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Hi Diopter,

Thank you for the clarification! Good to know, well it's cleaned now, gently though. I could see why they would not do so, however!

Any idea what the CUP pressure rating is for GP11 Ammo, approximately? I wanted to eventually develop my own hand loads.
 
45,500psi is the usual number stated.

Here's some chrono data I collected on GP11 and Privi loaded ammo through a K11 and a 96/11.
K11 =23.3" barrel
96/11 = 30.7" barrel

Prvi 174gr FMJ BT K11 23.3" barrel
String: 1
Date: 25/08/2012
Time: 6:47:29 PM
Grains: 174
Hi Vel: 2544
Low Vel: 2506
Ave Vel: 2525
Ext Spread: 38
Std Dev: 26
Prvi 174gr FMJ BT K11
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
2506 0 0
2544 0 0

1984 GP11 & K11
String: 2
Date: 25/08/2012
Time: 6:52:10 PM
Grains: 174
Hi Vel: 2635
Low Vel: 2624
Ave Vel: 2627
Ext Spread: 11
Std Dev: 6
1984 GP11 & K11
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
2624 456.576 2659.981
2635 458.49 2682.329
2624 456.576 2659.981

Prvi 174gr FMJ BT in 96/11
String: 3
Date: 25/08/2012
Time: 6:52:57 PM
Grains: 174
Hi Vel: 2704
Low Vel: 2650
Ave Vel: 2679
Ext Spread: 54
Std Dev: 20
Prvi 174gr FMJ BT in 96/11
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
2650 461.1 2712.955
2672 464.928 2758.187
2682 466.668 2778.871
2688 467.712 2791.319
2704 470.496 2824.647

1984 GP11 & 96/11
String: 4
Date: 25/08/2012
Time: 6:54:02 PM
Grains: 174
Hi Vel: 2726
Low Vel: 2699
Ave Vel: 2707
Ext Spread: 27
Std Dev: 11
1984 GP11 & 96/11
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
2726 474.324 2870.798
2704 470.496 2824.647
2699 469.626 2814.211
2699 469.626 2814.211
2710 471.54 2837.197
 
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WOW!

Thank you sir! Excellent information. I wanted to ask, if you reload, what your favorite recipe is for accuracy in your K11? I plan to reload as I mentioned, and would like an idea where to start.
 
Time is limited for me the last few years I'm afraid.
I really like 168-175gr Bergers. Difference from 1.5" down to under 1" at 100yds.
Favorite in my K31s is 44.5 Varget with the Hornady Amax 178gr
and 45gr with the Bergers.
Usual caveats apply


Hope to do some RL-17 testing this summer with 49 to 50gr.
RL17 is the modern version of powder used in the GP11 rounds, made by same company in Switzerland.
.....unless Alliant changes manufacturer.
 
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