CZ 858 or Mini 14

ChrisAlston said:
How am I on an anti-Mini bandwagon? I clearly stated that I liked the Mini rifles, but if were to choose between the two I pick Cz858. Yes, I have taken down Mini 30's and M-14's many times. You are on drugs if you think they're easier to field strip than 858's. Not that they're hard to field strip, but certainly not as nice as an 858. Push out two pins, and the gun practically falls apart. Deal with it.
-Stainless is nice, but whatever. I would clean it regardless.
-I also acknowledged that the Mini's sights were better
-They're both accurate enough for what they are
-Don't give a crap about mounting a scope, these aren't precision rifles
-Both rifles have a ton of accessories available

It's cool that you can just read my mind and inform me I only like 858's because they look like AK's. Good job. Fact remains, the 858 is a better deal, is combat proven, and a ton of fun to play around with. The Mini is nice too and if you prefer it, then fine. All the power to you. I feel it is way overpriced, and thus I recommend the Cz858 to the OP based on what you get for your buck. Maybe you could try hopping off your anti-Cz858 bandwagon eh?
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Funny thing is, I'm not anti-CZ at all, they're a lot of fun and a good value. They just give up a lot beside a Mini-30 stainless, and scoping does matter to many of us that like to hunt with them, and they are plenty accurate to warrant one. Given that much of my use for such a rifle is bush and hunting, stainless is huge there too. Agree to disagree on takedown, for me it doesn't get any easier than pulling down a Mini's trigger guard and ending up with a barreled action, stock, and trigger group. I prefer the Mini's safety and ergos, but that's a personal preference as I shoot left and right, born lefty but right eye dominant, true ambi is nice.

To summarize, there is nothing wrong with the 858, it's just not up to par with a Mini-30 in my opinion; it also doesn't cost as much so that's fair. Proven / mil means no more to me than proven through far more made and more rounds fired, nowhere will you find an informed opinion calling the Mini weak or fragile.

So agree to disagree, my apologies for the Jedi mind trick, it was directed at most folks "Ooooh" to my 858 being uncased and boredom at the Mini-30 which is more accurate, more weather resistant, and of equal reliability. If the 858 fits a fella better it's a great gun, I prefer it to the AK which I've enjoyed in the Valmets and overseas. As a side note I also prefer the Mini to the AK and I have quite a bit of experience with both. Same reasons versus the AK but it has far worse ergos than the 858.

I hope some can recognize the heavy anti-Mini bias, entirely hogwash, that has been perpetuated here for almost ten years now. If it was just introduced we'd be running at a sub-$1000 stainless semi from a quality maker in three chamberings. It is however, old hat, boring, and functional so it takes a lot of slag. I tend to defend the Mini aggressively and offensively, so for any slight in doing so my true apologies.

supernova said:
You need to read what I wrote about you rather than make stuff up :) your attitude sucks, I like to point those things out haha. I couldn't care less what your preference is, mine is different and I know it. To say otherwise is retarded.
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Problem is, and at the risk of being trite, I wasn't familiar with you but I quickly learned your opinion didn't mean much to me. I noticed an immediate spike in emotion soon as we disagreed, and reasoned anything there out was likely to be attack / emotion based. If you'd like me on your ignore list please feel free to add me. I don't believe we've ever corresponded so I doubt it's much loss to either of us. Cheers. :)
 
Well wow, things sure got hot in a hurry. Definitely not planning on doing more thank plinking or possibly varmint shooting (crown land, and range). I am not sweating how cool or badarse it looks, my primary consideration is long term reliability (think SHTF rifle as a complement to a reliable sidearm), followed by accuracy.

The plan is to check both out at the range, though it's likely to be the vz58 and a mini 14 (not quite the same thing, I know, and I have to say that the thread is making me consider the 30 instead of the 14) and see which I like better. At the moment I like both... But that's based on reviews and lots of reading.
 
Have fun on the range, good news is you're picking between two decent guns. Accuracy make sure the Mini you're trying is 580 series + (first three digits of the serial number, easily told), those are the latest ones and what you'd buy off the shelf. They are actually startlingly accurate from my experience. Even the earlier ones are actually just fine by black rifle standards and better than a good few, there was a bad barrel fiasco with Ruger in the late 80's to early 90's if memory serves, and the rumours persist to this day among those who haven't spent time with them. With varmints in I'd no hesitation suggest the Mini-14 is the way to go and done deal.

Either way, you're ending up with a good gun let us know what you find.
 
"
Ardent said:
Funny thing is, I'm not anti-CZ at all, they're a lot of fun and a good value. They just give up a lot beside a Mini-30 stainless, and scoping does matter to many of us that like to hunt with them, and they are plenty accurate to warrant one. Given that much of my use for such a rifle is bush and hunting, stainless is huge there too. Agree to disagree on takedown, for me it doesn't get any easier than pulling down a Mini's trigger guard and ending up with a barreled action, stock, and trigger group. I prefer the Mini's safety and ergos, but that's a personal preference as I shoot left and right, born lefty but right eye dominant, true ambi is nice.

To summarize, there is nothing wrong with the 858, it's just not up to par with a Mini-30 in my opinion; it also doesn't cost as much so that's fair. Proven / mil means no more to me than proven through far more made and more rounds fired, nowhere will you find an informed opinion calling the Mini weak or fragile.

So agree to disagree, my apologies for the Jedi mind trick, it was directed at most folks "Ooooh" to my 858 being uncased and boredom at the Mini-30 which is more accurate, more weather resistant, and of equal reliability. If the 858 fits a fella better it's a great gun, I prefer it to the AK which I've enjoyed in the Valmets and overseas. As a side note I also prefer the Mini to the AK and I have quite a bit of experience with both. Same reasons versus the AK but it has far worse ergos than the 858.

I hope some can recognize the heavy anti-Mini bias, entirely hogwash, that has been perpetuated here for almost ten years now. If it was just introduced we'd be running at a sub-$1000 stainless semi from a quality maker in three chamberings. It is however, old hat, boring, and functional so it takes a lot of slag. I tend to defend the Mini aggressively and offensively, so for any slight in doing so my true apologies."



-Agree to disagree then. I understand that mounting a scope is important to some, but the OP stated he was looking primarily for a plinking rifle and not MOA accuracy. Hence why I chimed in, since my particular use for these rifles is also plinking, and mounting scopes on them just doesn't interest me. I've had plenty of guys oogle my 858 at the range too, and admittedly I like the way it looks as well, AK-ish or not. That's part of the fun of it. But it's definitely not the only reason I like it.

I agree that a stainless finish would be more weather resistant, but honestly I wouldn't see it as a deal breaker if you wanted to hunt with either one. The 858's are a military rifle after all, they're made to take abuse, and if you're really worried about it you can just Dura-coat it or something. Your opinion may be different.

I have noticed that there is a bit of an anti-Mini bias out there, I didn't intend to contribute to it as I don't really have a bias against the rifle itself. I understand most of the anti-bias comes from the earlier .223's apparent dismal accuracy. I myself have found the 7.62mm Mini 30 to be plenty accurate, haven't fired the 223 Mini 14 enough to really comment. I just think they cost too much, especially seeing as the 858 is equally reliable (and durable, IMHO) and comes with four mags for less than $700. You obviously feel the Mini's price is justified, and that's just fine.

FWIW I also prefer the CZ over the AK, though my experience with AK's is limited. Only handled and fired them a couple times when I was in the forces. Still wish to hell I could own an AK though :)

Overall I say both the Mini and the 858 are fine rifles. You take your Mini and I'll take my CZ, we're both happy. My apologies as well for any offence.
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Ardent said:
Problem is, and at the risk of being trite, I wasn't familiar with you but I quickly learned your opinion didn't mean much to me. I noticed an immediate spike in emotion soon as we disagreed, and reasoned anything there out was likely to be attack / emotion based. If you'd like me on your ignore list please feel free to add me. I don't believe we've ever corresponded so I doubt it's much loss to either of us. Cheers. :)
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In all honesty I don't think you understand how you come across at all. We can disagree all day but when you try to tell people they only like something based on a speculative, opinionated point and act like they don't know what theyre talking about just because they disagree with you, well... you should get the picture. Have fun with your mini ('s). Ill have fun with my 858s.
 
All fair points Chris, and agreed.

supernova, in almost ten years here and then in writing on my own site I'm pretty familiar and comfortable with how I come across. I chose the handle "Ardent" for a reason, as my opinions can be and often are strong. The only one emotionally sensitive to those opinions in this thread was you, and for that, I'm sorry your feelings were hurt but I stand by my opinions, tone, and manner. Cheers.

-Angus
 
Hurt feelings lol? I called you out for being a douchebag. Nothing more, nothing less. Making things up doesn't make them true so you can say what you like.

Ardent said:
All fair points Chris, and agreed.

supernova, in almost ten years here and then in writing on my own site I'm pretty familiar and comfortable with how I come across. I chose the handle "Ardent" for a reason, as my opinions can be and often are strong. The only one emotionally sensitive to those opinions in this thread was you, and for that, I'm sorry your feelings were hurt but I stand by my opinions, tone, and manner. Cheers.

-Angus
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Ignore button isn't far away, please use it, I'll do the same. :)

Sorry to Hamlet and all for the hijack.

Getting us back on track here's a 581 series Mini-30 in a vintage factory folder I put together last year. Tiny, weather impervious, great little bush and pack gun.

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No apologies required, that's the nature of forums - everyone has opinions, some stronger than others, but all's well. Nicely done with that rifle!
 
ActiveShooter said:
I've owned both, and most of your points on the mini are false, or opinion based. Leave your emotions out of the next discussion or someone may confuse you as a liberal... :)
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Its ok, I speak from experience, not out of my a$$ like a Liberal or many on this forum.

Ardent said:
I'm hearing people say this, but how?

There isn't a single field it passes a stainless Mini-30 on in specs except price. Please correct me, I like to learn. :)



There is so much misguided and misinformed in this post I'm not sure where to start.

1. The 580+ with the current heavier barrel (anything he'll buy off the shelf) is actually more accurate side by side than a 858, for sure. Owned both.
2. The safety off with a forward motion of the finger, pull back to fire is one of the best and quickest ever designed. Navy Seals, the Army, and the Marines still like it.
3. Don't like the stock? Getting a kick out of "not comfortable for long periods", snipers use conventional stocks still for hours on end. So do us hunters. Plenty comfortable. Don't like it? Buy a folding pistol grip or Archangel, there are exponentially more numerous accessories for the Mini.
4. Stainless is a huge benefit, not everyone comes back to a townhouse, I can kick the mini into a woodshack or barn and it's fine for months, even after corrosive.
5. Optics mounts, so far out it seems like comedy. Mini has a proper comb height for optics, VZ doesn't. Mini has integral mounts, VZ doesn't. There are scout mounts and rails galore for the Mini of course too.
6. Magazines; agreed.
7. Muzzle brakes; agreed. We're talking 7.62x39 / powderpuff recoil though.
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1. What level of accuracy are you looking for? Gophers aren't an issue with the 858, plenty accurate enough. Magnified optics on the 858 is difficult and not what the rifle was designed for, so mid range accuracy is decent with irons or a reddot.
2. That's nice, some other people like the design, its sub optimal and poorly located. I agree that the 858 is lacking an ambi safety/selector.
3. Snipers aren't carrying the rifle all day, nor are they on the gun all day. Carry your mini low ready for a day in the field and tell me how your wrist feels. The aftermarket stocks for the mini are junk.
4. I've left my 858 dirty for months and it still ran fine. Its called paint, it protects anything you put it on.
5. 858 wasn't designed for magnified optics, its a service rifle not a range queen.
6. Agreed
7. Minimal recoil or not, anything that reduces it further is a benefit.

Tudenom said:
That's a bit extreme don't you think? Let's break this down:

A bastardized M1/M14 that doesn't perform nearly as well as those two. Another discussion for another time and totally irrelevant.

The stock is a classic straight stock which is not comfortable for extended periods of time. This depends entirely on how you carry your rifle. Unless you're carrying your rifle in the ready position a lot then there's little advantage to having a pistol grip. That's part of the reason why 90% of hunting rifles don't have pistol grips.

See above.

The stainless construction has zero benefits for those who are not lazy about cleaning their firearms. People who work around salt water or muggy / rainy west coast environments would definitely disagree. Rust is a major problem in these environments and you can have a rusty gun by lunchtime. Less cleaning required is an advantage, period.

Again, see above. Paint works wonders as do some of the bake on finishes. Stainless isn't stain proof.

Mini accuracy is a misnomer, they shoot minute of barn at best. This hasn't been true for over a decade.

I haven't shot or seen a mini shot that wasn't a bag of a$$ for accuracy. The "heavy" barrel on the newer ones is a downer if you pack your rifle all day.

Mounting optics is a pain in the a$$ for the mini, the best three mounts for the VZ are easy to install and two offer the use of irons while installed. Again, welcome to the 21st century, things are better now. Most mounting systems for the mini are similar to same the CZ so therefore the CZ mounts must suck too eh? The mini has the option of a hand guard that doesn't need to come off for cleaning which is better for maintaining zero, and a factory ring mount option. The mini wins hands down.

The handguard on the 858 returns to zero, its a non issue. Cleaning the piston isn't critical and doesn't need to be done every time.

Muzzle break options are near non existent for the mini, and plentiful and easy for the 858. Not really problem for a 223 semi auto, but yes unless you have some minor gunsmithing done then your muzzle break options are limited to crappy pin on breaks (though some work just fine).

Again, see above. Any reduction in recoil and muzzle movement is a benefit.

Magazines are cheap and reliable for the 858 and the complete opposite for the mini. Nope, cheap magazines are junk either way, but the better quality Ruger magazines are well worth the money and are 100% reliable. You just can't find 30 or 20 round mags in Canada right now. 5 rounders are cheap and plentiful though and get the job done.

You'd be sadly mistaken, all the magazines for the 858 are cheap in price and are genuine issue mags. Never had a problem with one. Five round magazines don't work well for rapid reloads as they're too short. They also don't fit in magazine pouches. And where are the 20's and 30's?

The safety inside the trigger guard on the mini is a stupid design, full stop. Why? Is there a documented problem with mini's or M1 / M1A / M14 / M305 going off when they shouldn't?
There should be no controls near the trigger on any firearm. Its all business when you enter the trigger guard, engaging or disengaging the safety near the trigger is an ND waiting to happen. In addition, the motion of disengaging the safety can lead to trigger slapping as your finger is going from the extreme forward edge of the trigger guard to the trigger and ultimately the full travel of the trigger. Its a slow setup to use. That being said, the 858 is quite easy and fast to disengage but not so much to reengage.
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I'm in bold.

TDC
 
TDC said:
There should be no controls near the trigger on any firearm. Its all business when you enter the trigger guard, engaging or disengaging the safety near the trigger is an ND waiting to happen. In addition, the motion of disengaging the safety can lead to trigger slapping as your finger is going from the extreme forward edge of the trigger guard to the trigger and ultimately the full travel of the trigger. Its a slow setup to use. That being said, the 858 is quite easy and fast to disengage but not so much to reengage.


TDC
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This ^^^
 
Traveler said:
Have a VZ 58 and have used the mini on multiple occasions and honestly the mini is the one I would go with.

Much more accurate and reliable for what you would be looking for.
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Yeah no.. It may be more accurate but I'll be damned if it's more reliable than the CZ. Go with the CZ OP

Then again, accuracy is determined by the man behind the gun.
 
JeffFromCanada said:
Yeah no.. It may be more accurate but I'll be damned if it's more reliable than the CZ. Go with the CZ OP

Then again, accuracy is determined by the man behind the gun.
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It actually likely is, by about 0.1% perhaps. More Minis have been made than VZs, and more rounds fired through them, it has actually had more development too with tweaks throughout its life like the AR. Both however are exceptionally reliable, well designed guns. Neither side here can use reliable to put down the other, only state it as a positive for both, as the Mini is one of the most reliable semis of all time. VZ I'm sure is in the same ballpark.
 
For TDC:

1. Having owned VZ58 and 858s accuracy is not gopher good (and still own acreage SW of Calgary with gophers), in my humble opinion. You can hit gophers, but taking one's head off as he peaks above a mound is Mini-14, and scope territory compared to the 858. If he wants to varmint there's really no comparison. (Groups from even an "old" scoped Mini of ZuluMike's quoted as they apply here, 1" 100 yards)

2. Agree to disagree, I find it exceptional and fast and have never set my Minis or M14 off and sure I never will.

3. I don't sweep compounds much, but I have carried heavy rifles low ready all day culling in Africa, wrist is just fine, but everybody's built differently and perhaps it's different. Same for bird hunting with conventional stocks, have held low ready for ages, no worries on that.

4. Fair enough, paint's certainly not stainless steel I'm sure we can all agree.

5. Minis are anything but range queens, a rifle that won't fit a scope and offers poorer iron sights fits the range category more to my mind than a more versatile one better suited to varminting and hunting / field use. Few to none would pick a rifle without the ability to mount a scope and poorer accuracy with hunting in the picture, and hunting is as anti-range queen as it gets.

6. Yep agreed

7. For a .223 / 7.62x39 where the recoil is essentially non-existant, I find brakes only increase noise and overall length. I put my guns in and out of vehicles and aircraft weekly and a lack of a brake is a benefit for field use, range I'll concede may be different, I haven't shot on a range in a long time in fairness.

This is good constructive debate and likely exactly the stuff that Hamlet needs, good stuff.

Mini-14 groups, courtesy of ZuluMike, better than everyone says.

ZuluMike said:
I've had mine for about 9 years and have always been happy with it's accuracy using handloads or the 45gr Winchester bulk pack ammo, usually just over an inch for 3 rounds at 100. I put on new Warne rings and an old 1.5-6x20 B&L Balvar scope on it last night and went out and zeroed it this morning. I think this new setup will make an excellent close cover fox, coyote rifle.

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Here are a couple of the groups shot with my handloads: 60gr V-Max, 24gr Varget, Win brass, and CCI primers.

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JeffFromCanada said:
Yeah no.. It may be more accurate but I'll be damned if it's more reliable than the CZ. Go with the CZ OP

Then again, accuracy is determined by the man behind the gun.
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This!!! ^^^^

Ardent said:
It actually likely is, by about 0.1% perhaps. More Minis have been made than VZs, and more rounds fired through them, it has actually had more development too with tweaks throughout its life like the AR. Both however are exceptionally reliable, well designed guns. Neither side here can use reliable to put down the other, only state it as a positive for both, as the Mini is one of the most reliable semis of all time. VZ I'm sure is in the same ballpark.
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Reliability can be determined between the two. The VZ was and still is an issued rifle that has seen action. The Mini has never been issued to any reputable force.

Ardent said:
For TDC:

1. Having owned VZ58 and 858s accuracy is not gopher good (and still own acreage SW of Calgary with gophers), in my humble opinion. You can hit gophers, but taking one's head off as he peaks above a mound is Mini-14, and scope territory compared to the 858. If he wants to varmint there's really no comparison. (Groups from even an "old" scoped Mini of ZuluMike's quoted as they apply here, 1" 100 yards)

2. Agree to disagree, I find it exceptional and fast and have never set my Minis or M14 off and sure I never will.

3. I don't sweep compounds much, but I have carried heavy rifles low ready all day culling in Africa, wrist is just fine, but everybody's built differently and perhaps it's different. Same for bird hunting with conventional stocks, have held low ready for ages, no worries on that.

4. Fair enough, paint's certainly not stainless steel I'm sure we can all agree.

5. Minis are anything but range queens, a rifle that won't fit a scope and offers poorer iron sights fits the range category more to my mind than a more versatile one better suited to varminting and hunting / field use. Few to none would pick a rifle without the ability to mount a scope and poorer accuracy with hunting in the picture, and hunting is as anti-range queen as it gets.

6. Yep agreed

7. For a .223 / 7.62x39 where the recoil is essentially non-existant, I find brakes only increase noise and overall length. I put my guns in and out of vehicles and aircraft weekly and a lack of a brake is a benefit for field use, range I'll concede may be different, I haven't shot on a range in a long time in fairness.

This is good constructive debate and likely exactly the stuff that Hamlet needs, good stuff.

Mini-14 groups, courtesy of ZuluMike, better than everyone says.
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1. You said it, head shots are best taken with an OPTIC. The 858 is a service rifle, designed for much larger targets and not well suited for optics aside from a reddot.

5. Iron sights does not make a rifle a range queen. Rifles that have never seen a sling a scratch or a fall are range queens. Mounting magnified optics often leads to stationary "preision" fire which is very much range queen territory.

6. The extra 2 inches of length is a non issue. The increase in report is a non issue as you should be wearing ear pro, and I really don't care what the neighbour at the range has to say about report.


We need to know what sort of performance and type of shooting the OP is looking for before offering any options. Without knowing and simply comparing pros to cons, the 858 is a far better value for the dollar and much easier to support and feed.

TDC
 
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