CZ 858 or Mini 14

I'd vote CZ, but I do agree with the posts about the stock. It's a fantastic rifle, but the furniture that comes with it sucks, IMHO. It also felt "too small" for me. That being said, I'm a big gorilla and my knuckles drag when I walk, so maybe my arms are just too long. Once I purchased some decent polymer furniture from Zahal, the thing fit like a glove. The only argument against that is you spend $600 for a rifle and then have to add another $400 to it to get it to fit better. Scoped, I can indeed shoot out to 250 yards with it. It's perfect for what I want it to do, and I've never had any failures, etc with it, after thousands of rounds through it.

Cannon
 
screwtape said:
That all you've got to contribute? A stupid cartoon? I take it you don't actually own either a Mini or a Swiss Arms yourself, so that you can provide your own personal comparison of two from side-by-side use, as Ardent just did?

As I understand it, Ardent is saying that, from his personal ownership and use of the two rifles, his experience is that if the reason you want a self-loading .223 rifle is for carting around your farm to shoot coyotes at 250-300m, you will probably find a $900 Ruger as useful and enjoyable to use as a $2000+ Swiss Arms. You got a problem with that?
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Thank you, and you nailed it. Certain types can't accept something less tactical and shown on tv less performs the same in the real world. Both are rock solid .223 semis, and with 45gr white box Win HP and 55gr Federal FMJ group identically for me (2" 100 yards). The Mini however handles a scope better and weighs 2lbs+ less. I had to scout scope my PE90 to get a scope height I found comfortable without a cheek riser. The Mini mounts anything from the get go.


300Spartans said:
Ardent, I value your posts, counting you as one of the most intelligent and articulate members here, one who walks the walk. Did the Mini's groupings meet the PE90s? If so, that should give cause to many members here to give more consideration to the Ruger rifle.
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Again, thanks. I didn't find the PE90 to be as accurate as everyone said, and I owned one for quite awhile. It could produce MOA here and there with 62gr and the small bit of the Swiss ammo I had, but typically produced 1.5" and 2" when warmed up. This mirrored the 581 series Mini to a tee, occasional 1-1.5" groups, reliably 2-2.5". In the end I had to question why I had a $3000 rifle that weighed far, far more, mounted scopes far more poorly, had far more expensive replacement parts and accessories, was less weather resistant, and in the end was just a semi .223 like the Mini.

This just won't wash with the died in the wool tacticoolers, it can't compute that two quality semis do the same thing in the real world (Mini being lighter, cheaper, and more weather resistant actually bodes better for the field). A semi .233 that hits what you aim at is a semi .223, I'm afraid, even if that shakes the earth for guys that only like guns shown in movies, games, and so forth. Fashion, the Mini does not have, function, it has in droves.

Nothing wrong with liking tactical and mil stuff, but lets just remember we're hobbyists. Some folks get a littttle wound up a about it. Some guys like Ferarris some guys like Vettes. Big price difference same result. I can afford PE90's but like Minis.
 
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The Swiss Arms is twice the gun as the Mini...twice as HEAVY that is. Actually it's probably closer to 2.5 times.
 
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Ardent said:
I hope some can recognize the heavy anti-Mini bias, entirely hogwash, that has been perpetuated here for almost ten years now. If it was just introduced we'd be running at a sub-$1000 stainless semi from a quality maker in three chamberings. It is however, old hat, boring, and functional so it takes a lot of slag. I tend to defend the Mini aggressively and offensively, so for any slight in doing so my true apologies.
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When they reintroduced the Mini, Ruger did botch it up, considering what they could have done, I was quite disappointed... Not that it isn't a good working gun ( I had the target version ) but when you retool a product, that is the right time to make any improvements. The barrel was thickened in certain areas, but what should have happened was the gas block being reconfigured to take a thicker barrel, and a heavier barrel throughout its length incorporated... Accuracy Systems has been changing them out for years...why not make that change at the factory? Missed opportunity? Maybe, but considering that dealers have a hard time keeping them in stock, maybe they know their majority customer base better than I...
 
I think the move was to keep retoolimg costs at a minimum and add the least weight possible while getting an improvement. A lot of it was doubtless cosmetic much as I hate to say it, as just as you read regurgitated here non-stop tons of folks who've never owned them now take it as fact they are inaccurate. Even the pencil barrel minis were as accurate as AR180B's, Robarm M96's, likely the XCR, and baseline ARs (good ARs of course are another ball game, and can compete with bolt rifles at their epitome).

I personally have owned, in .223:

-Valmet
-Swiss Arms (Both full length, and CQB)
-AR180B
-Multiple ARs of course
-Robinson Armamet M96 x2
-Many Mini-14's
-And stuff I'm certainly forgetting here as I type this on my phone
-In 7.62x39: Ruger, VZ52, VZ58, CZ858, CZ527, SKS Yugo/Chinese/Russian, and again more I'm likely forgetting.

Out of all of it, only the good ARs produced what you would call a high level of dependable target quality accuracy. All the rest were field accurate, which is nothing to scoff at and better than many shooters anyhow.

The Minis in my opinion have proven to me to be as or more accurate than the:

-AR180B, my Minis were more accurate, and not plastic recievers.
-PE90 Mini 581 series matched it, and a lot lighter. PE90 performed better with RUAG and quality 62gr, but only marginally by standards for a gun not going to Camp Perry.
-CZ858, my Minis were notably more accurate. However the better irons and scoping may make it tough to properly judge the 858, it has poor sights and very poor scoping options.
-RobArm M96: This gun has a soft spot in my heart. For true black rifles, I really like this one. It is however heavy, there are no spare parts, and my Minis could out shoot it. Still, loved the stainless construction and left side charging handle, not to mention 10 second barrel changes. Handles great too, but I digress.
-Valmets: Have had multiples, only one .223 however, and the Minis were lighter and slightly more accurate.
-ARs: common knowledge, the good ones really shoot. Restricted though unfortunately and as such, near useless unless you shoot service rifle, enjoy them just from a hobbyist perspective, or play barbie dress up rifle.

My point in summary is the AR180B, Valmets, M96, CZ858, and PE90 aren't crapped on as inaccurate overpriced hunks of junk, by and large, when of ALL of them the Mini has been the most reliable for me (and I've shot a lot more round a through the Minis). And the Mini is the cheapest aside from the 858, as accurate, the most reliable in my experience, and has readily available parts and accessories.

...and yet it's still the fad to call it junk. :) Works for me, more for us shooting them.
 
Ardent said:
I think the move was to keep retoolimg costs at a minimum and add the least weight possible while getting an improvement. A lot of it was doubtless cosmetic much as I hate to say it,
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As bad as the Mini isn't, it would have been nice if they could have improved on what might have been issues, thereby modernizing the rifle to some degree and maybe shutting up detractors...
 
Well, decision is made, Ranch Mini in stainless it is... Time to get on the waiting list I guess.

Ardent, thank you, a lot of what you wrote mirrored my thoughts in the selection process. Thanks also to everyone else who contributed, it was good information.
 
IchBinEinSniper said:
When they reintroduced the Mini, Ruger did botch it up, considering what they could have done, I was quite disappointed... Not that it isn't a good working gun ( I had the target version ) but when you retool a product, that is the right time to make any improvements. The barrel was thickened in certain areas, but what should have happened was the gas block being reconfigured to take a thicker barrel, and a heavier barrel throughout its length incorporated... Accuracy Systems has been changing them out for years...why not make that change at the factory? Missed opportunity? Maybe, but considering that dealers have a hard time keeping them in stock, maybe they know their majority customer base better than I...
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I thought the target model, with harmonic stabilizer, addressed these issues?
 
I have always been a fan of the Mini. Ardents words were carefully chosen and 100% correct. You can not beat a Mini-14. It is not a sniper rifle BUT it will shoot everytime and you can toss it in your truck with out all our canadian gun law BS. It really is ahead of the rest.
 
The CZ858 would be more appealing if it came with the "Gremlin" fixed and a hard chromed lined hammer forged barrel for the non restricted version. I like both the CZ858 and the Ruger Ranch rifles, however from personnel experience I find the 580+ series Ruger ranch rifles in 223 more accurate.
 
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I owned both, ended up selling the 858, I absolutely love my mini, cleaning that 858 got pretty old pretty fast. It was fun to shoot but the corrosive ammo and cleaning all the time made me sell it. My votes for the mini-14
 
I'd personally go for the Ruger.
The Mini-30 if it will shoot surplus 7.62x39.
I think the CZ is a little overpriced for what it is. I mean I just finished building someone a Tapco'd and Tacticool'd SKS, and all said & done it was still cheaper than a CZ.

I have an SR-22 and a K10/22 carbine and they're both quality weapons.
 
quinnjoblow said:
I also thought that Ruger made the barrels to only shoot American spec 7.62x39(.308 diam bullets)ammo instead of the cheap surplus 7.62x39(.311 diam bullets). I'm not sure but maybe someone else that has one can chime in.
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VanIsler said:
lol :HR:
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Here's some info.
This rifle is chambered for the 7.62 x 39mm cartridge. This cartridge, traditionally, uses a projectile with a nominal diameter of .311 to .312 inch.
At the time the Mini Thirty was introduced very few bullet makers where producing .311/.312 inch bullets for reloading in the light 125-130 grain weight required. Ruger initiated the use of barrels with a groove dimension of .308 inch and a long tapered throat. The throat allowed the use of ammunition with .311/.312 projectiles by gradually “squeezing” them to the .308 diameter. In addition, ammunition loaded with more commonly available .308 diameter bullets could also be used.
Commencing in 1992 Ruger initiated a change to using .311/.312 nominal groove diameter, 1-10 inch right hand twist barrels in all Mini Thirties. It was likely well into 1993 before all rifles coming of the production line incorporated the .311/.312 barrels.
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300Spartans said:
I thought the target model, with harmonic stabilizer, addressed these issues?
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At the gas block, it is still the original diameter... The heavier barrel is only from there forward and the harmonic is on the end. If they would have put a heavier diameter barrel in (including at the gas block), the harmonic would not even have been necessary... Add in a gas valve with adjustments (something made fairly cheaply by another man.) and it would have been golden.
 
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