Got out to the range today with my new .50 cal AR mags.

[tiriaq]

Lots of opinion here.
Sooner or later, there will be a RCMP determination. Probably sooner, rather than later.
This site is monitored.

It is interesting that another business is going through the process of having their magazines cleared through Alexander Arms and the RCMP.

 

[rdelliott]

.50 Beowulf pistols do exist.

So why the hell has the Canadian Firearms business community not jumped all over this yet?

 

[BenL]

So why the hell has the Canadian Firearms business community not jumped all over this yet?

Cost * scarce availability = bendoverandholdontoyourankles price tag.

 

[TrevorF]

The very fact that the mfr went under the RCMPs noses to avoid having to get them approved like pinned mags is concerning because the RCMP do not know about them.

Those are bold claims. How do you know they didn't consult the RCMP? Statements like that make you sound like you are talking out of your brass.

 

[TrevorF]

It is interesting that another business is going through the process of having their magazines cleared through Alexander Arms and the RCMP.

Let me guess, they aren't 5 rnd mags are they?

 

[lone-wolf]

I can see you're desperate for these things and just won't accept that there may be legal issues with them.

Actually I don't want any, as they seem to be overpriced for what they are. Just another plastic AR mag.

 

[beltfed]

I get what you guys are saying, and I would be apprehensive if this was 2006, but honestly if someone was charged for possession of prohibited device by an LEO, it would be tossed out of court. The mags are designed to accept 5 rounds of .50 Beowulf or .458 SOCOM.
There is nothing else to the matter.

How are you certain of this bolded statement? Are you a federal judge? Do you work for or head Nwest?

 

[supernova]

Which still sounds more credible than you lmao

Those are bold claims. How do you know they didn't consult the RCMP? Statements like that make you sound like you are talking out of your brass.

 

[Kryogen]

no rcmp ruling on this yet?

 

[burnaby]

Expecting this mess to be all sorted out by the time the T97s are out. Looking forward to cheap 15+ rnds AR mags.

15+ rnds in a .50 mags in a T97, talk about controversial?

 

[maurice]

Who ####ing cares if the RCMP approves it. The fact that they very likely know of these produced mags, and that the company has invested a bunch of money into producing them, .....etc....do u really think they would risk jail, arrests, time and money, and possible lawsuits by manufacturing and selling these mags to the public???? Sounds like we have a lot of industry experts commenting in this thread who have no common sense. It has been like reading the enquirer ffs.

 

[OccasionallyOnTarget]

The RCMP is not a lawmaker. Its opinions do not have any legal force. The RCMP bulletin is not the law, it's just the most authoritative interpretation of the law we have, presumably written by RCMP or Justice Department lawyers who can probably be trusted to have looked at the issue very carefully. But at the end of the day it is the actual law that matters. The wording of the actual law is:

"Any cartridge magazine that is capable of containing more than five cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic firearm other than a semi-automatic handgun" is a prohibited device.

The key phrase, obviously, is "for which the magazine was originally designed." The only relevant question is whether these magazines were originally designed for cartridges of the .50 or .458 or similar cartridges or whether they were actually designed for .223 or 5.56mm.

How can this question be answered? If this issue was before a judge, the judge would require evidence related to the design. Crown counsel would have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt (I think), that the magazines were designed to hold the smaller cartridges, in order to obtain a conviction. The only evidence we have seen on this point is that the seller of the magazines claims they were designed for .50 calibre cartridges. If the seller is not lying, presumably the designer must have represented that the magazines were designed for .50 calibre cartridges. If the designer is going to stick to that story, then how can the Crown ever prove that the magazines were designed for smaller cartridges? Of course, maybe there are documents floating around where the designer emails someone and says, hey we need to design these for .223 and we're just going to claim that they are for .50, but it seems much more likely that the designer will be able to show that they recognized a massive demand for magazines to hold 5 .50 calibre cartridges and simply acted on that.

This is all supposition of course. The bottom line is that all that is necessary for these magazines to be non-prohibited is for the designer to plausibly claim that they designed the magazine to hold 5 .50 cartridges and a conviction for possession of a prohibited device will be impossible.

The RCMP might "decide" that these magazines are prohibited devices, but it will ultimately be up to a court. If the RCMP really does not like these, it can always try to get the government to change the regulation. A vote in parliament is not necessary for this; cabinet can change the regulation very easily.

That's my $0.02.

 

[TrevorF]

That's my $0.02.

Well said. Thank you for actually posting the law and not hearsay.

 

[supernova]

This is all supposition of course.

That's my $0.02.

Well said. Thank you for actually posting the law and not hearsay.

 

[SPRTN308]

If the designer is going to stick to that story, then how can the Crown ever prove that the magazines were designed for smaller cartridges? Of course, maybe there are documents floating around where the designer emails someone and says, hey we need to design these for .223 and we're just going to claim that they are for .50, but it seems much more likely that the designer will be able to show that they recognized a massive demand for magazines to hold 5 .50 calibre cartridges and simply acted on that.
QUOTE]

Hmmmm.

If it goes before a court, and, one of the very first pieces of evidence they see is an independant video/review prior to them being available for anything other than a pre-order showcasing how they feed 15 rounds of .223 just great, and yet, there's no video of them feeding 5 rounds of .50 Beowulf or .458 Socom....

Well, it's gonna be pretty hard for anyone to prove otherwise.

You'd think the very first video of these would have been showcasing a .50 Beowulf owned by the manufacturer, with the marketing clearly labelled for the .50 Beowulf and .458 SOCOM.....

That, and, again, I absolutely hate the thought of it, but, if your design doesn't include a follower specifically adapted to the larger diameter, single-stack nature of a .50 caliber cartridge, then, it'll be pretty damn hard to prove it was designed for just such a caliber, when there are numerous online discussions surrounding how a standard .223 follower "works", but, isn't "great" when it comes to these particular rounds.

I mean, if this thread is truly about discussing the merits of someone finally offering a sound product for the Canadian marketplace, then, they've done a piss-poor job of really demonstrating how this product is on the up and up. That's what burns me up, and why for the most part, as a 3D draftsman/designer myself, my own magazine designs have pretty much stalled at just the 3D modelling stage.

Also, and, this is just me.... They're marketed as holding 5 rounds of .50 caliber.... .50 Beowulf and .458 SOCOM. They only hold 15 rounds of .223, so, does that mean they're not 5.5 or 5.8 rounds of .50 Beowulf? I'm pretty sure that they should hold one or two more rounds, for the simple fact that a "designed from the ground up" 5 round magazine for .50 Beowulf would allow for that 5th round to go in nice and easy, and have a bit of room for the bolt and such....

If they only hold 15 rounds of .223, then they must be awfully tight for the caliber they were designed for....

 

[SPRTN308]

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here, but, I still see this as being a problem....

It sort of compromises the argument that this product is designed from the ground up for .50 Beowul/.458 SOCOM

Then again, that's if the RCMP even cares to argue. It *does* only hold 5 rounds of said calibers, so, perhaps they don't give a crap.

But, to me, it still seems like an obvious workaround, with shared components....

 

[maurice]

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here, but, I still see this as being a problem....

It sort of compromises the argument that this product is designed from the ground up for .50 Beowul/.458 SOCOM

Then again, that's if the RCMP even cares to argue. It *does* only hold 5 rounds of said calibers, so, perhaps they don't give a crap.

But, to me, it still seems like an obvious workaround, with shared components....

Are there not video of other .50 mags that were used to hold other calibres?
Trevor does not work for this company; perhaps u r reading to much into it?

 

[00Buck]

So why the hell has the Canadian Firearms business community not jumped all over this yet?

Getting a pistol magazine approved is not that easy.

The reason why is that the law states that the pistol magazine must be for a handgun that is "commonly available in Canada."

An importer tried this with the Brugger & Thomet TP-9 pistol.

Although there are B&T TP-9 Pistols in Canada the RCMP decided they were not "commonly available." so the 10 round magazines were rejected.

Just how "common" a gun has to be seems to be up to the RCMP so I wouldn't expect 10 round Beo-Mags to show up for sale ever.

Also, and, this is just me.... They're marketed as holding 5 rounds of .50 caliber.... .50 Beowulf and .458 SOCOM. They only hold 15 rounds of .223, so, does that mean they're not 5.5 or 5.8 rounds of .50 Beowulf? I'm pretty sure that they should hold one or two more rounds, for the simple fact that a "designed from the ground up" 5 round magazine for .50 Beowulf would allow for that 5th round to go in nice and easy, and have a bit of room for the bolt and such....

Anyone who owns a B&T TP9 will tell you the swiss magazines are pinned to EXACTLY 5 rounds. Not five and a half or five and a quarter. They are pinned to exactly five with Swiss precision. Yes it is a pain to get the last round in. A tightly pinned magazine does not prove or disprove anything.

If it goes before a court, and, one of the very first pieces of evidence they see is an independant video/review prior to them being available for anything other than a pre-order showcasing how they feed 15 rounds of .223 just great, and yet, there's no video of them feeding 5 rounds of .50 Beowulf or .458 Socom....

Well, it's gonna be pretty hard for anyone to prove otherwise.

If a manufacturer claims their car was designed to carry four passengers and a customer buys the car and makes a video where he crams 8 people into the car that does not mean the car was designed to carry 8 people. Trevor also ran the mag over with his car in the video. This does not mean the magazine was designed to be run over with cars.

If the first piece of evidence you show a jury is a room full of dead school children who were shot with an AR-15 you could say it would be hard to prove it wasn't designed to murder children. However, we all know that was not the intent behind the design. That's simple courtroom theatrics. It's just sensationalism designed to form an emotional bias. It does not prove criminal intent on the part of the designer.

Also the intent of a user is not the same as the intent of the designer. They are two separate things.

Also all standard .223 AR pistol magazines that hold 10 rounds will also hold 10 rounds of .300 blackout. This does not require a specific follower, markings, or any other changes for .300 blackout. In fact I've never heard of a single magazine ever marked .300 blk. Yet you can switch your upper and use the same magazines. Does this mean you can't run .300 blk in your rifle because no specifically marked .300blk magazines exist?

In order for the manufacturer to be in violation you would have to prove intent to break the law. So far I've seen no evidence of the manufacturer showing intent to break the law.

I also believe that Trevor has shown no intent to break the law either. He is convinced that his interpretation of the RCMP bulletin is correct and even if the magazines were declared to be a prohibited device he has no intent to own, possess, or use a prohibited device.

 

[BenL]

The RCMP is not a lawmaker. Its opinions do not have any legal force. The RCMP bulletin is not the law, it's just the most authoritative interpretation of the law we have, presumably written by RCMP or Justice Department lawyers who can probably be trusted to have looked at the issue very carefully. But at the end of the day it is the actual law that matters. The wording of the actual law is:



The key phrase, obviously, is "for which the magazine was originally designed." The only relevant question is whether these magazines were originally designed for cartridges of the .50 or .458 or similar cartridges or whether they were actually designed for .223 or 5.56mm.

How can this question be answered? If this issue was before a judge, the judge would require evidence related to the design. Crown counsel would have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt (I think), that the magazines were designed to hold the smaller cartridges, in order to obtain a conviction. The only evidence we have seen on this point is that the seller of the magazines claims they were designed for .50 calibre cartridges. If the seller is not lying, presumably the designer must have represented that the magazines were designed for .50 calibre cartridges. If the designer is going to stick to that story, then how can the Crown ever prove that the magazines were designed for smaller cartridges? Of course, maybe there are documents floating around where the designer emails someone and says, hey we need to design these for .223 and we're just going to claim that they are for .50, but it seems much more likely that the designer will be able to show that they recognized a massive demand for magazines to hold 5 .50 calibre cartridges and simply acted on that.

This is all supposition of course. The bottom line is that all that is necessary for these magazines to be non-prohibited is for the designer to plausibly claim that they designed the magazine to hold 5 .50 cartridges and a conviction for possession of a prohibited device will be impossible.

The RCMP might "decide" that these magazines are prohibited devices, but it will ultimately be up to a court. If the RCMP really does not like these, it can always try to get the government to change the regulation. A vote in parliament is not necessary for this; cabinet can change the regulation very easily.

That's my $0.02.

Regarding the point bold'd above: the onus on the burden of proof - as far as I know - isn't one of the Crown prosecutors to proove, but rather the Defendants to show their innocence in such a case. I could be wrong though.

 

[uberkermit]

I've not had my paws on .50 Beowulf so I can't answer this myself: Will they even fit in a regular AR mag, like an LAR-15? If they fit, do they work/function?