Firearms reclassification.

Ya gotta think it would be to EVERYONE'S benefit (RCMP & us) to resolve all of this in some way that let's us keep our firearms.

I mean, nothing is black and white - I really don't care who did what and / or when they did it. If this situation is rectified - then all is well in my books.
What's done is done - on purpose or accident - whatever. Those individuals who are working thanklessly to keep my SAN in my possession - THANK YOU !!!!
 
The problem is the RCMP seem to be able to say they converted a certain gun to FA and then refuse to say how it was done and how much it cost.

If you can take a 858 and have anyone with a little knowledge convert it to FA in their garage then yes they have the right to make that gun a prohib. However if they have a skilled machinist/millwright/gunsmith take a year or more and countless buckets of money to do it then that is pure BS and it should not be put into prohib.

Have we ever been told how they converted the original Norc.T97 to FA? If so I missed it and if it took a hundred thousand dollars worth of time and a complete trigger assembly smuggled in from China then that conversion is also BS. Short of having a "friend" in the PRC try get a FA trigger group.

Why would the RCMP not tell owners how they converted it, obviously it must be a scary secret and we aren't allowed to be privileged with the information. Well this is Canada where we apparently have a democracy but only when it suits some people.

The "complaint" about any guns is laughable, and again give me enough money and I will build a .50cal FA out of a 52 Buick.
 
Switzerland has close to million full auto's in private homes and last time I checked it was a safe country and great place live.
 
250rg said:
Switzerland has close to million full auto's in private homes and last time I checked it was a safe country and great place live.
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Yes I believe military service is mandatory. But when you leave you keep your rifle. I'm pretty sure that's correct. I'm also pretty gun murders are almost zero. America does not have a trillion gun murders a week because they have a lot of guns. It's because they have a lot of crazies.
 
The problem is american gun cultu,re has been so vilified up here that it a up hill battle pointing out the its merits. The swiss on the other hand wins over fence sitters fudd's and non gun owner all for the most part have a very positive image of Swizterland us pointing out there is a huge amount of full auto's in private home make them go Huh...
 
enfield303t said:
Have we ever been told how they converted the original Norc.T97 to FA? If so I missed it and if it took a hundred thousand dollars worth of time and a complete trigger assembly smuggled in from China then that conversion is also BS. Short of having a "friend" in the PRC try get a FA trigger group.

Why would the RCMP not tell owners how they converted it, obviously it must be a scary secret and we aren't allowed to be privileged with the information. Well this is Canada where we apparently have a democracy but only when it suits some people.
Click to expand...

No we have not (publicly) been told, and it is for exactly the ridiculous reasons you allude to: public safety. The "secret" of the T97A is very well known to lots of people though, and yes there was a big problem with that firearm which is not shared by any other commecially available semi-auto firearm in Canada that I know of - certainly not the 858 or the SAN, both of which I own.

I was legal counsel on the Firearms Act reference hearing for the T97A which was done in Vancouver Provincial Court in 2011. Originally the Department of Justice were going to try and hold the hearing without even telling us (the applicant and her legal counsel) exactly how they converted the firearm. I think they were even going to try and do it without telling the judge! They were just going to play the video of Murray Smith turning his back with the rifle for 20 seconds, and then turning back and firing it full auto - and top it off with dire warning about public safety. Typical Fascist behaviour: "We can't possibly trust you with this knowledge. Only we can be trusted."

So, I told the DOJ that this was ridiculous, because on our side we already have access to the applicant's firearm (plus all the unsold ones at Lever, plus the actual select-fire T97 at one of the movie armourers) - there are no secrets, no secret squirrel knowledge that only they possess, and that our expert witness and the other experts we had on our side know more about automatic firearms and have more experience with them than Murray Smith and William Etter (from the RCMP lab, their experts), and as much knowledge as anyone anywhere about how automatic firearms work.

Ultimately they relented and we were disclosed the "modes of conversion" they used (which were all just variations on one basic theme), and we had a full discourse about the "modes of coversion" in court - the catch being that there is a publication ban on the public dissemination of the "modes of conversion", which specifically mentions that they are not to be disseminated via the Internet. The reason is... the RCMP and the Department of Justice are living 120 years in the past, believing that the knowledge of how automatic firearms work is complicated, secret or new... and they want to try and maintain their fantasy.

You can take it from me, as someone who is 100% on the side of Canadian gun owners, that there was a big problem with the T97A. If you really want to know more about this, get my phone number and call me up some time, or call Blair Hagan (NFA), Chris Youngson (CanadaAMMO), Travis Bader (Silvercore) or one of the other people who was there in the courtroom. We knew about the problem well in advance. Right from the first time our expert witness examined the firearm he told me... "we've got a problem here". It's actually a couple of problems that compound each other to make it incredibly easy to essentially "disable" the semi-auto function of the firearm.

Although there never was a firearms reference hearing for the BD38 or BD3008 (I tried to find someone who wanted to try, but every single person felt it was a lost cause on Hasselwander) there was a problem with those firearms as well... that they fired from the open bolt with just a simple Sten-type sear, which - on the BD3008 anyway - could apparantly be manipulated by hand to achieve full-auto fire.

Suffice it to say, where there is a problem of the Hasselwander-type, it related to the sear somehow. I do not for a second believe that the 858 and the SAN have these problems, certainly nothing even remotely close to the T97A or the BD38 or BD3008. The problem is, once the ball gets rolling and the RCMP are able to prohib some firearms on their own initiative - are they going to stop? Hell no. They will keep going until they are forced to stop. That is what we have to do now. Murray Smith and William Etter must be forcibly retired, the firearms lab shut down and moved to another agency, and it made absolutely clear - in no uncertain terms - to everyone in the employ of the federal government that they are not entitled to pursue policy objectives - and if they do, they'll be cleaning out their desk by the end of the day. Enough of this B.S. This is our government.
 
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ghostie said:
No we have not (publicly) been told, and it is for exactly the ridiculous reasons you allude to: public safety. The "secret" of the T97A is very well known to lots of people though, and yes there was a big problem with that firearm which is not shared by any other commecially available semi-auto firearm in Canada that I know of - certainly not the 858 or the SAN, both of which I own.

I was legal counsel on the Firearms Act reference hearing for the T97A which was done in Vancouver Provincial Court in 2011. Originally the Department of Justice were going to try and hold the hearing without even telling us (the applicant and her legal counsel) exactly how they converted the firearm. I think they were even going to try and do it without telling the judge! They were just going to play the video of Murray Smith turning his back with the rifle for 20 seconds, and then turning back and firing it full auto - and top it off with dire warning about public safety. Typical Fascist behaviour: "We can't possibly trust you with this knowledge. Only we can be trusted."

So, I told the DOJ that this was ridiculous, because on our side we already have access to the applicant's firearm (plus all the unsold ones at Lever, plus the actual select-fire T97 at one of the movie armourers) - there are no secrets, no secret squirrel knowledge that only they possess, and that our expert witness and the other experts we had on our side know more about automatic firearms and have more experience with them than Murray Smith and William Etter (from the RCMP lab, their experts), and as much knowledge as anyone anywhere about how automatic firearms work.

Ultimately they relented and we were disclosed the "modes of conversion" they used (which were all just variations on one basic theme), and we had a full discourse about the "modes of coversion" in court - the catch being that there is a publication ban on the public dissemination of the "modes of conversion", which specifically mentions that they are not to be disseminated via the Internet. The reason is... the RCMP and the Department of Justice are living 120 years in the past, believing that the knowledge of how automatic firearms work is complicated, secret or new... and they want to try and maintain their fantasy.

You can take it from me, as someone who is 100% on the side of Canadian gun owners, that there was a big problem with the T97A. If you really want to know more about this, get my phone number and call me up some time, or call Blair Hagan (NFA), Chris Youngson (CanadaAMMO), Travis Bader (Silvercore) or one of the other people who was there in the courtroom. We knew about the problem well in advance. Right from the first time our expert witness examined the firearm he told me... "we've got a problem here". It's actually a couple of problems that compound each other to make it incredibly easy to essentially "disable" the semi-auto function of the firearm.

Although there never was a firearms reference hearing for the BD38 or BD3008 (I tried to find someone who wanted to try, but every single person felt it was a lost cause on Hasselwander) there was a problem with those firearms as well... that they fired from the open bolt with just a simple Sten-type sear, which - on the BD3008 anyway - could apparantly be manipulated by hand to achieve full-auto fire.

Suffice it to say, where there is a problem of the Hasselwander-type, it related to the sear somehow. I do not for a second believe that the 858 and the SAN have these problems, certainly nothing even remotely close to the T97A or the BD38 or BD3008. The problem is, once the ball gets rolling and the RCMP are able to prohib some firearms on their own initiative - are they going to stop? Hell no. They will keep going until they are forced to stop. That is what we have to do now. Murray Smith and William Etter must be forcibly retired, the firearms lab shut down and moved to another agency, and it made absolutely clear - in no uncertain terms - to everyone in the employ of the federal government that they are not entitled to pursue policy objectives - and if they do, they'll be cleaning out their desk by the end of the day. Enough of this B.S. This is our government.
Click to expand...

I second that, but how do we go forward with this?
 
Brian46 said:
I have followed all the threads and there is no direct answer as to where the two converted autos came from other than someone posting years of their import and that they were bound for TSE.

Things like why were they selected as control samples, who has had posession of them, where they part of a regular shipment for sale or were they specific imports for another purpose, who has had access to the rifles since importation before the RCMP got them, etc are what the current owners of these rifles in this country NEED and WANT to know NOW.

If TSE waits till after the RCMP has ruled (making legal firearms owners criminals) to try and determine if they have been selling C/A rifles illegaly we are going to be in even more trouble
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I have recently received some more accurate info on the rifles. I can't post the documents yet but I will add to my website once I can.
ESF9116 was imported by CSC in late 2012. ESF73096 was imported by TSE about 2008 and has been there since then in my opinion as pictures of the receiver show inventory stickers we used to track guns. ESF74361 was imported by FN Sports in 2012 and subsequently sold to TSE for retail sale.
I am not sure what specific help this provides but hopefully it helps.
 
ghostie said:
No we have not (publicly) been told, and it is for exactly the ridiculous reasons you allude to: public safety. The "secret" of the T97A is very well known to lots of people though, and yes there was a big problem with that firearm which is not shared by any other commecially available semi-auto firearm in Canada that I know of - certainly not the 858 or the SAN, both of which I own.

I was legal counsel on the Firearms Act reference hearing for the T97A which was done in Vancouver Provincial Court in 2011. Originally the Department of Justice were going to try and hold the hearing without even telling us (the applicant and her legal counsel) exactly how they converted the firearm. I think they were even going to try and do it without telling the judge! They were just going to play the video of Murray Smith turning his back with the rifle for 20 seconds, and then turning back and firing it full auto - and top it off with dire warning about public safety. Typical Fascist behaviour: "We can't possibly trust you with this knowledge. Only we can be trusted."

So, I told the DOJ that this was ridiculous, because on our side we already have access to the applicant's firearm (plus all the unsold ones at Lever, plus the actual select-fire T97 at one of the movie armourers) - there are no secrets, no secret squirrel knowledge that only they possess, and that our expert witness and the other experts we had on our side know more about automatic firearms and have more experience with them than Murray Smith and William Etter (from the RCMP lab, their experts), and as much knowledge as anyone anywhere about how automatic firearms work.

Ultimately they relented and we were disclosed the "modes of conversion" they used (which were all just variations on one basic theme), and we had a full discourse about the "modes of coversion" in court - the catch being that there is a publication ban on the public dissemination of the "modes of conversion", which specifically mentions that they are not to be disseminated via the Internet. The reason is... the RCMP and the Department of Justice are living 120 years in the past, believing that the knowledge of how automatic firearms work is complicated, secret or new... and they want to try and maintain their fantasy.

You can take it from me, as someone who is 100% on the side of Canadian gun owners, that there was a big problem with the T97A. If you really want to know more about this, get my phone number and call me up some time, or call Blair Hagan (NFA), Chris Youngson (CanadaAMMO), Travis Bader (Silvercore) or one of the other people who was there in the courtroom. We knew about the problem well in advance. Right from the first time our expert witness examined the firearm he told me... "we've got a problem here". It's actually a couple of problems that compound each other to make it incredibly easy to essentially "disable" the semi-auto function of the firearm.

Although there never was a firearms reference hearing for the BD38 or BD3008 (I tried to find someone who wanted to try, but every single person felt it was a lost cause on Hasselwander) there was a problem with those firearms as well... that they fired from the open bolt with just a simple Sten-type sear, which - on the BD3008 anyway - could apparantly be manipulated by hand to achieve full-auto fire.

Suffice it to say, where there is a problem of the Hasselwander-type, it related to the sear somehow. I do not for a second believe that the 858 and the SAN have these problems, certainly nothing even remotely close to the T97A or the BD38 or BD3008. The problem is, once the ball gets rolling and the RCMP are able to prohib some firearms on their own initiative - are they going to stop? Hell no. They will keep going until they are forced to stop. That is what we have to do now. Murray Smith and William Etter must be forcibly retired, the firearms lab shut down and moved to another agency, and it made absolutely clear - in no uncertain terms - to everyone in the employ of the federal government that they are not entitled to pursue policy objectives - and if they do, they'll be cleaning out their desk by the end of the day. Enough of this B.S. This is our government.
Click to expand...

solid info here, thanks for this post ghostie

Shooting Centre said:
I have recently received some more accurate info on the rifles. I can't post the documents yet but I will add to my website once I can.
ESF9116 was imported by CSC in late 2012. ESF73096 was imported by TSE about 2008 and has been there since then in my opinion as pictures of the receiver show inventory stickers we used to track guns. ESF74361 was imported by FN Sports in 2012 and subsequently sold to TSE for retail sale.
I am not sure what specific help this provides but hopefully it helps.
Click to expand...

This too
 
ghostie said:
No we have not (publicly) been told, and it is for exactly the ridiculous reasons you allude to: public safety. The "secret" of the T97A is very well known to lots of people though, and yes there was a big problem with that firearm which is not shared by any other commecially available semi-auto firearm in Canada that I know of - certainly not the 858 or the SAN, both of which I own.

I was legal counsel on the Firearms Act reference hearing for the T97A which was done in Vancouver Provincial Court in 2011. Originally the Department of Justice were going to try and hold the hearing without even telling us (the applicant and her legal counsel) exactly how they converted the firearm. I think they were even going to try and do it without telling the judge! They were just going to play the video of Murray Smith turning his back with the rifle for 20 seconds, and then turning back and firing it full auto - and top it off with dire warning about public safety. Typical Fascist behaviour: "We can't possibly trust you with this knowledge. Only we can be trusted."

So, I told the DOJ that this was ridiculous, because on our side we already have access to the applicant's firearm (plus all the unsold ones at Lever, plus the actual select-fire T97 at one of the movie armourers) - there are no secrets, no secret squirrel knowledge that only they possess, and that our expert witness and the other experts we had on our side know more about automatic firearms and have more experience with them than Murray Smith and William Etter (from the RCMP lab, their experts), and as much knowledge as anyone anywhere about how automatic firearms work.

Ultimately they relented and we were disclosed the "modes of conversion" they used (which were all just variations on one basic theme), and we had a full discourse about the "modes of coversion" in court - the catch being that there is a publication ban on the public dissemination of the "modes of conversion", which specifically mentions that they are not to be disseminated via the Internet. The reason is... the RCMP and the Department of Justice are living 120 years in the past, believing that the knowledge of how automatic firearms work is complicated, secret or new... and they want to try and maintain their fantasy.

You can take it from me, as someone who is 100% on the side of Canadian gun owners, that there was a big problem with the T97A. If you really want to know more about this, get my phone number and call me up some time, or call Blair Hagan (NFA), Chris Youngson (CanadaAMMO), Travis Bader (Silvercore) or one of the other people who was there in the courtroom. We knew about the problem well in advance. Right from the first time our expert witness examined the firearm he told me... "we've got a problem here". It's actually a couple of problems that compound each other to make it incredibly easy to essentially "disable" the semi-auto function of the firearm.

Although there never was a firearms reference hearing for the BD38 or BD3008 (I tried to find someone who wanted to try, but every single person felt it was a lost cause on Hasselwander) there was a problem with those firearms as well... that they fired from the open bolt with just a simple Sten-type sear, which - on the BD3008 anyway - could apparantly be manipulated by hand to achieve full-auto fire.

Suffice it to say, where there is a problem of the Hasselwander-type, it related to the sear somehow. I do not for a second believe that the 858 and the SAN have these problems, certainly nothing even remotely close to the T97A or the BD38 or BD3008. The problem is, once the ball gets rolling and the RCMP are able to prohib some firearms on their own initiative - are they going to stop? Hell no. They will keep going until they are forced to stop. That is what we have to do now. Murray Smith and William Etter must be forcibly retired, the firearms lab shut down and moved to another agency, and it made absolutely clear - in no uncertain terms - to everyone in the employ of the federal government that they are not entitled to pursue policy objectives - and if they do, they'll be cleaning out their desk by the end of the day. Enough of this B.S. This is our government.
Click to expand...

Sincere thanks for your post, much appreciated and well explained.
 
ztunelover said:
I second that, but how do we go forward with this?
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It's going to have to be at the ballot box and the donation box. We vote as a block - million strong ideally - and we donate as a block, and if they won't give us reasonable firearms laws, we take our million votes and millions of dollars somwhere else. It has to be a vocal, assertive block of voters.

Steve Janes said:
solid info here, thanks for this post ghostie
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Thanks.

Not Long said:
Thanks ghostie!
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Thanks again. I wish I had stories of success to tell... but so far it has been pretty discouraging.

At the time T97A was going on, we (NFA guys, CanadaAMMO Chris, etc.) all said, that if we had better facts (better gun) to work with, we could beat them in court. It looks like we are going to get our chance. The SAN and the 858 do NOT fall within the scope of Hasselwander in my view. Not a chance.

The problem is that there are several different routes to prohib - and the guys at the lab try to use them all: (1) Hasselwander (readily convertible to full auto: T97A, BD38, BD3008); (2) Variant of a named prohib (AP80, GSG 522); (3) Assembled from full auto or converted auto reciever.

I'm not sure what is actually being considered for any of these firearms currently, but "variant" is the most dangerous, because it is the most wishy-washy/least defined of all these criteria.
 
ztunelover said:
Nope it's full of pretty mountains and delicous choclate, and some stellar rifles.
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I know a guy who is Swiss (served in the army) and the interesting thing he told me was they actually target shoot across valleys and there are villages in the bottom of these valleys. No one complains or cares, guess just a mature culture.

It would be interesting to see Windy Wendy and her ilk try to change gun laws in that country.
 
enfield303t said:
I know a guy who is Swiss (served in the army) and the interesting thing he told me was they actually target shoot across valleys and there are villages in the bottom of these valleys. No one complains or cares, guess just a mature culture.

It would be interesting to see Windy Wendy and her ilk try to change gun laws in that country.
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They have highways running underneath their 300m ranges. It's totally normal. I've seen video's.
 
enfield303t said:
I know a guy who is Swiss (served in the army) and the interesting thing he told me was they actually target shoot across valleys and there are villages in the bottom of these valleys. No one complains or cares, guess just a mature culture.

It would be interesting to see Windy Wendy and her ilk try to change gun laws in that country.
Click to expand...

It takes practice and discipline, everyone has or is serving, and that rifle is integral to their life. As a result they spend time with it and the idiots get weeded out really fast.

Windy Wendy would get her ass kicked out of that country before a lambo can hit 60mph.
 
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