Norinco .223 ammo

Runningfool said:
I had a similar issue but it turned out to be a mag-related issue. Were you using the Norinco ammo in a LAR mag by chance? The Norinco 223 I had was 2 thou longer than the Federal AE stuff I had...that increase in OAL combined with the crappy followers in my LAR mags seemed to be what caused the occasional stoppage where the projectile ended up shoved into the case like you described. After installing Magpul followers in the LAR mags I've never had the problem since.
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I was using D&H mags, I believe they come with magpul followers in them.

The OAL could be the reason it isn't feeding the same as other rounds though! thanks for the info!
 
Steve Janes said:
I am part of a small group of shooters, we recently did a group buy of the CJ95, and have run about 3000 rounds so far between the group of us, in that time, through 4 different guns (a Swiss, 2 different XCR's, and a DD mk18), we haven't seen any malfunctions that could be attributed to the ammunition.
I did however see some light primer strikes on some of the CJ95 with a friends NEA SBR
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I've seen a large number of people shooting this stuff at matches lately. So far I've seen a half dozen rounds pushed back into the casings, keyholing with some batches (<35 yard ranges) and light primer strikes. For what these guys paid for the ammo no one is complaining. Over all it seems to work pretty well.
 
mb9 said:
Maybe. I never thought of that. It works fine with AE and S&B. I have about 400 rounds of that run through the gun with zero malfunctions...
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This is what threw me as well...in my LAR mags, other ammo worked fine but the Norinco would occasionally get jammed as you described. My Pmags fed the Norinco and other ammo just fine. I thought maybe the bullet ogive of the Norinco was different and maybe that was part of the problem...the Norinco appears "pointier" so I thought it was maybe catching on my feed ramps but they looked fine. So I took a mic to the ammo and realized the Norinco was significantly longer than the other stuff I was using. That is how I finally arrived at the conclusion that my LAR mags didn't feed reliably with the longer Norinco bullets. Magpul followers in the LAR mags solved the issue for me but as with anything, ymmv.

Also, not sure if it is relevant at all but I'm running an NEA15 like you.
 
I have not had a problem running the nork ammo in my LAR mags, but there have been different problems with the mags according to other users. Mine have been fine since day one but others have had to tweak theirs to get them to work properly.

The nork stuff works well out of my P mags and old school Colt 20/5's as well.
 
Steve Janes said:
Ok, sorry for the thread revival here, but I saw someone with a chronograph at the range today and so did some testing. I knew this ammo was hot but WOW, 3276 fps is really hot!!!
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So out of curiousity are you still getting keyholes with the new barrel? Perhaps the wear of the old barrel was playing a bigger part in your issues than you first thought?
 
loki_81 said:
So out of curiousity are you still getting keyholes with the new barrel? Perhaps the wear of the old barrel was playing a bigger part in your issues than you first thought?
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No, no key holing through the new 1in10 twist barrel.

albertacoyotecaller said:
Steve Janes,

Please provide technical data explaining the comment about "bullets not catching" the rifling.

Thx
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I don't exactly know what you mean by technical data, but the way it was explained to me was the norc ammo is very hot, it was suggested that bullets were traveling to fast for the 1in7 twist and so were not catching the rifling groves properly, this caused higher than normal wear on the throat.

I've tested out the CJ93 and the CJ95 through many different rifles since I first noticed the key holing through my 1in7 twist. The only time I have been able to duplicate the extreme yaw was with an extremely shot out 1in9 twist barrel. I don't think the ammo is the issue. But I do believe shooting ammo this hot through a faster twist rate, like a 1in7, may cause your barrel to wear out quicker than normal, after all, it looks like I shot out a Swiss 1in7 barrel in just under 8000 rounds of this stuff, and at 3276 fps through a 20.70" barrel, it's no surprise this stuff is harder on the quicker twists.
 
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albertacoyotecaller said:
By technical, I mean something more than just a couple people talking about a wild theory.

Greg
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Like I said, I can't really give you one, just the gun smiths opinion......... the only ammo I shot through the barrel was roughly 8k of Norc CJ93, can we come up with any other reason why the throat would have been worn so much quicker than all the other rifling in the barrel? Or can we come up with any other reason why the ammo was key holing all over the place, but seems to have worked fine for the first 5-6000 rounds, and appears to function fine through a ton of other 1in7 barrels also.....The rifling at the throat end of the worn out barrel was nearly gone, where as the rifling throughout the bore was fine. I did not come up with this on my own.
 
That throat erosion in the barrel is not from bullets "not catching" the rifling. That is normal throat erosion from gases from hot loads or rapidly firing ammunition and getting barrels hot. This will happen to any barrel regardless of twist rate. Many a barrels have been replaced or turned back because of this and it is not uncommon for a gun that is used such as a bolt gun shooting gophers to exhibit these symptoms if mistreated. I don't believe that twist rate has anything to do with the barrel erosion. Twist rate does come into play in regards to stabilization of different weight groups of bullets.
 
albertacoyotecaller said:
That throat erosion in the barrel is not from bullets "not catching" the rifling. That is normal throat erosion from gases from hot loads or rapidly firing ammunition and getting barrels hot. This will happen to any barrel regardless of twist rate. Many a barrels have been replaced or turned back because of this and it is not uncommon for a gun that is used such as a bolt gun shooting gophers to exhibit these symptoms if mistreated. I don't believe that twist rate has anything to do with the barrel erosion. Twist rate does come into play in regards to stabilization of different weight groups of bullets.
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Well in this case, it's more than twist rate. It's a combination of things, but your entitled to your opinion. I don't want to argue about it. My belief is that shooting ammo this norc ammo (55gr m193 at 3276fps) out of a faster twist barrel, like a 1in7, may wear it quicker than say a 1in9 twist. Let's leave it at that.
 
I bought about 120 rounds of this stuff from Gobels in London since it was cheap. If anyone's wondering it does not work well in bolt guns. Not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but out of 40 rounds, usually 5 wont fire at all, and 5 more need a second hit from the firing pin in my Savage Model 11.

I'll let 80 rounds sit in my ammo locker for a while until I get an AR haha since I won't be using it.
 
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Not as defined as the others. But this was out of a BNIB Vanguard 223 Varmint, I had at lease 3 shots with a hole that elongated.

I was only able to get 12rds fired, Because It gummed up my firing pin.

I mean its pretty accurate. I was able to punch
 
Steve Janes said:
But I do believe shooting ammo this hot through a faster twist rate, like a 1in7, may cause your barrel to wear out quicker than normal, after all, it looks like I shot out a Swiss 1in7 barrel in just under 8000 rounds of this stuff, and at 3276 fps through a 20.70" barrel, it's no surprise this stuff is harder on the quicker twists.
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The official MV of m193 is 3250 fps out of m16a1.

The way you shoot your rifle is the reason for the throat erosion. The rate of fire is the issue, not the total number of rounds fired.
 
Steve Janes said:
Well in this case, it's more than twist rate. It's a combination of things, but your entitled to your opinion. I don't want to argue about it. My belief is that shooting ammo this norc ammo (55gr m193 at 3276fps) out of a faster twist barrel, like a 1in7, may wear it quicker than say a 1in9 twist. Let's leave it at that.
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The only way to settle this is for you to shoot another 8000 rounds through the 1:10 twist barrel in the same manner you did the first 8000 and have it inspected, then shoot another 8000 on the next barrel at a slower rate watching barrel temps and have it inspected again :D
Did you ever check any of the first 8000 for bi-metal jacketing? I don't really think rapid firing a semi auto rifle that has a barrel of a machine gun is ever going to get it hot enough to do the damage the others are claiming. I'm putting my guess on poor quality ammo being the prime culprit, plus your over the beach test obviously wasn't very good for the barrel.
 
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