Good quality production muzzleloaders ?

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North Star

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British Columbia
I looking for a new, maybe used muzzleloader to start off with. Want to shoot only PRB's.

Went to Wholesale Sports to see 3 new Lyman's: 2 GPR's and 1 Trade rifle. The fit and finish was very disappointing (countersunk top tang, wedge pins don't line up, vent liners at the far edge of pan, gaps between wood & metal). Pointed it out to the clerk but they will still sell them regardless. I would've sent them right back. Is this to be expected of Lyman ?

The few used muzzleloaders I've seen in person looked good on the outside but the bores had rust/pitting. I'm hesitant about buying any used muzzleloader on EE, can't inspect in person.
The muzzle may look great but towards the breech might be rust/pitting. Since I can't be there to inspect, I always ask for pictures of the lock, barrel removed from stock, nipple area, etc...

Dropping a little bore light down to the breech and running a patch over jag down to the bottom is the only way. Some sellers will send me a picture in poor lighting of the muzzle & exterior,
saying "it's in good condition" :bsFlag:

New rifles I'm thinking of are Lyman Trade Rifle .54 cal 1/48", Traditions Kentucky .50 cal 1/66"

Used rifles: TC Hawken/Renegade 1/48", maybe CVA Mountain Rifle 1/72"

looking for opinions on the above rifles.
 
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North Star, you seem to know quite a bit about muzzle loaders and potential issues with used guns if not properly stored/cared for (particularly in rainy BC). Those firearms at Wholesale sports were most likely kit guns that someone slapped together, as ones assembled at the factory are much better than what you described.

PRB likes the 1/48 twist I do believe, and a minie can also be used with no Ill effect. I'm to understand that as you veer to either end of the spectrum (1/48 being fairly neutral) either conical or ball suffer depending.

Pinned vs Keyed stocks are also a factor. Most Kentucky and Pennsylvanian rifles are pinned making removal of the barrel from the stock inadvisable. You can find these rifles "keyed" but these are usually custom builds and big $'s.
 
I love my Remmington 700 .50 cal Muzzle Loader. Very accurate with factory sights. It's in mint condition, no rust or pitting. A lot of people don't realized that the powder is corrosive, therefore not properly cleaning the muzzle loaders. I have though of selling it many times because I hardly use it, but my wife won't let me because it was her fathers that I inherited.
 
danoiwan said:
I love my Remmington 700 .50 cal Muzzle Loader. Very accurate with factory sights. It's in mint condition, no rust or pitting. A lot of people don't realized that the powder is corrosive, therefore not properly cleaning the muzzle loaders. I have though of selling it many times because I hardly use it, but my wife won't let me because it was her fathers that I inherited.
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by reading his post it would seem he wants a Traditional muzzle loader not a modern muzzle loader. While modern muzzle loaders are nice and shoot well. there is something nice about a traditional muzzle loader.

me personally, i don't like any of the Factory built muzzle loaders these days. they use cheap locks, the fit and finish on them is generally crummy. i looked at them all and didn't see any i liked. so i bought a kit and did it all myself. i got a unique muzzle loader that turned out beautiful. and shoots great, always turns heads at the range as it sounds like a cannon going off (.45 cal with 120 grains of 3f and a 530 grain lead bullet) not as much smoke as you would expect as it burns more thoroughly in the barrel pushing that honking bullet. (replica of an English target rifle the English sporting rifle) they dont take a lot to put together. inletting and such isnt to bad, took me about 4 months to do. i actually need to get it out and give it an oiling and shoot it as i haven't shot it in 2 years.
 
Aries- said:
me personally, i don't like any of the Factory built muzzle loaders these days. they use cheap locks, the fit and finish on them is generally crummy. i looked at them all and didn't see any i liked. so i bought a kit and did it all myself.
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The factory finished Thompson Center muzzleloaders I've seen show excellent fit & finish. Track Of The Wolf has Green Mountain drop-in barrel's, L&R locks, Davis triggers, etc...

I'm considering buying a complete TC Hawken/Renegade stock, then adding a GM barrel.
 
I'm biased about Lyman as I have a GPR in 54 cal. Also shocked to hear the condition of the one's you saw. I bought mine 14 years ago and it was and still is a beautiful rifle. Who knows, maybe quality is a thing of the past but I can't see it going that bad. For a RB rifle you need a 1-60 twist or higher. The Pedersoli P53 I have is 1-78 and shoots RB very accurately along with minie's of course.
 
It may have been a bad batch. On The Muzzleloading Forum, other's saw the same thing. Quality is hit or miss with the new Lyman's. Nobody has those problems with the old one's.

I asked on TMF about twist rate, the 1/48" will shoot round ball well, just need to experiment more with patch thickness & ball size.

They say rifled barrel's with 1/48" twist will shoot as accurately with PRB's as any with a slower twist, and may do so with less powder.

The original Hawken rifle's used 1-48". It was the most common twist used.

Will be limiting my shots to >80 yards, can't see too well with iron sight's past that. 90 grains should be plenty for deer out to 80 yds.
 
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North Star said:
The factory finished Thompson Center muzzleloaders I've seen show excellent fit & finish. Track Of The Wolf has Green Mountain drop-in barrel's, L&R locks, Davis triggers, etc...

I'm considering buying a complete TC Hawken/Renegade stock, then adding a GM barrel.
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its mainly the quality of the furniture, trigger and lock that i have the main beef with. after having to fix multiple lyman muzzle loaders, i have found even when the screws are all tight the internals of the lock and trigger are sloppier than a 3 cent whore.(sorry lol) if you could buy a basic rifle, and upgrade all of those things maybe id consider it. but i like getting the type of wood i can be proud of. a chunk of birch meh. but for a basic hunting rifle that is gonna get tossed in the back of a truck. or dropped and scratched up. then a lyman would be fine.
 
I have and older Lyman Trade Rifle as does a friend. The fit and finish are excellent. It's a shame if they've gone down hill in their quality control. Lymans used to be made by Investarms. Has Lyman gone to a different manufacturer?

Have you looked at Davide Pedersoli guns? They are very good - but more expensive.
 
Goldenlakepete said:
I have and older Lyman Trade Rifle as does a friend. The fit and finish are excellent. It's a shame if they've gone down hill in their quality control. Lymans used to be made by Investarms. Has Lyman gone to a different manufacturer?

Have you looked at Davide Pedersoli guns? They are very good - but more expensive.
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Lyman rifles are still being made by Investment Arms.

I've never seen a DP gun. They cost more than the Lyman GPR. I've seen the Traditions Hawken 28" & Pennsylvania 42" barrel. The straight 42" barrel is overly heavy.

Fit & finish on both were quite good. The Traditions Kentucky .50 cal caplock looks ok. It's a 2-piece stock but has 33" barrel 1-66" :

TraditionsKentuck1-66quot50cal.jpg
 
Aries- said:
I bought a kit and did it all myself. i got a unique muzzle loader that turned out beautiful. (replica of an English target rifle the English sporting rifle) they dont take a lot to put together. inletting and such isnt to bad, took me about 4 months to do.
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I've looked at the kits TOW offers. Most of the stocks are already pre-inlayed. What special tools did you need to complete it ? Looks like a drill press is mandatory.
 
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The one I got had no inletting other than the basic barrel channel. I needed files, sandpaper, chissles, a candle, and yeah a drill press. Could likely use a hand drill if you were careful.
 
"...expected of Lyman..." That's how Lyman keeps their prices down. It's a case of getting what you pay for, just like anything else.
 
I have a Euroarms "Kentuckian" in .45 cal that is finished extremely well. I have yet to shoot it but I do expect it will be an excellent shooter. A real pleasure to own.
 
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