Picture of the day

RRCo. said:
Yes, interesting. A lot of unnecessary complication to have interrupter gear for just two 7.92mm MGs though. They would have been better off with one 30mm and drop the MGs altogether. Must have used a very fast propellant to keep the fouling down. The complications of isolating a cannon firing through your engine, literally down the center of your crankshaft are huge, and of course you're limited to only one barrel. Much more difficult to service and maintain as well. But the old love of complication rising to the fore again!
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it doesnt run through the crankshaft, that would be impossible, the motor is mounted upside down and the cannon barrel runs through a gap under (over?) the intake manifold

the early 109s had a propeller with a hole for the cannon, but never mounted one, they had the 2 mgs and then 2 20mm in the wings, not until the F series did they mount the prop hub cannon
 
diopter said:
Have to get close enough to read the tail numbers. :)
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Airforce personnel of all countries took extensive training on identifying any military aircraft by sight or silhouette. They knew what type of aircraft, friend or foe, was in the skies.
 
They did indeed, but guys like Hartmann liked to get very close before firing to ensure they weren't wasting ammunition. Kinda the Air Force version of creeping up on a deer rather that whacking him from way to hell and gone across a valley.

More sporting, donchaknow...:)
 
Recognizing target is first step. then you have to close enough to kill it.

Question of deflection shooting.
Shooting platform and target are both moving, with high crosswinds and inertia of planes, bullets and shells making a complex 4 dimensional problem with gravity curving everything down and you then have to figure out where everything will be in the time it takes the bullet and shell to get there.
Further away both are, the worst it gets.
Then add high speed to further complicate matters
Traditionally, the best aces were good at shotgunning, not necessarily rifles.
 
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RRCo. said:
Yes, I know that's the theory, but the trajectory is not the same, ruling out longer distances and only by using tracer in the MGs can you tell where they are shooting, and when your target sees the tracer flying past him, he tends to go into violent evasion manoeuvres. I guess it's significant that when they did move up to 30mm, they didn't put them through the engine IIRC. What's better and simple: one cannon through the prop boss or two or four cannon in the wings? In fairness though, it was a pre-war design, based more on WWI experience than anything else I suspect.
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Easier to sight and hit with central mounted cannons/mg's. In the wing they had set distances where the weapons converged, not necessary with the nose mounts. Basically easier to aim and less weight in the wings more manouverable in theory.
 
I had a very close friend who had done a complete tour of duty, 30 missions, in RCAF bomber Command, as a radio operator/air gunner, operating an upper gun. They were often attacked by German fighter planes and were often shot up pretty badly. I asked him how many German fighters he had hit and he told me he had never hit any!
I later heard that bomber air gunners hit very few German attacking fighter planes.
He sure had a lot of experiences that would not be happy events. He was in the twin engine Wimbledon (Wimpy) bomber, that had a reputation of being able to keep flying after terrific damage in the air. On one such trip they were so badly shot up that the skipper told them to get ready to jump. They all lined up in a row and one fellow got excited and pulled his ripcord! He bundled the chute up in his arms and stood ready to jump!
But the skipper and his engineer helper nursed it back to England, where they had a strip made east to west virtually right on the shore line, so if they got back clearing the water they could flop it on the strip.
Another time their old Wimpy had just barely enough power to get off and wouldn't climb or fly as fast as it should. Plenty of reason to dump their bombs in the water and go home. But the skipper said no, they would carry on. He said they were supposed to get up to 30,000 feet, but couldn't get over 22,000. He said they could see their target city all on fire from away back and no other bombers there, when they arrived. But he said the flack guns were set to explode at 30,000, but with them being at 22,000, the flack was all well above them. They dumped their bombs on the burning target and got home without a scratch!
 
The Wellingtons served a valuable purpose in the war, but they were a LONG way from perfect! Your bud was unbelievably lucky to survive in aircrew for 30 missions. Must have had a hell of a pilot and plenty of internal stowage for horseshoes.

Here's a Wimpy under new ownership:

Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1972-019-88%2C_Beuteflugzeug%2C_Vickers_Wellington.jpg


Gotta give 'em credit - they were hell for strong:

Wellington-bomber-fire-damage.jpg
 
The RAF/RCAF mostly bombed at night. When the guns were fired it lit up the bomber for any night fighter in the vicinity so the idea was not to fire unless fired upon first. The main job of the gunners, especially the rear gunner, was to remain vigilant for enemy night fighters and to warn the pilot to take evasive action when they saw one.
 
I read about this event in a Toronto Star article about the current excavation of a wharf on the site. It must have been quite the public attraction! Pretty neat to see how things have changed.
http://3.bp.########.com/_Zl5WEoyt_sQ/TIjUmy0VrsI/AAAAAAAAA4M/VghFzBwJF54/s1600/86c1560f.jpg

On June 10, 1919, German U-boat UC-97 pulled up alongside Harbour Square wharf in Toronto’s harbour.

This was not part of a Teutonic invasion, but rather one stop on the submarine’s tour en route to the Great Lakes Training Centre in Chicago.

The U-boat was part of a fleet that had surrendered to the British navy at the end of the First World War. It was one of five submarines given to the U.S. Navy by the British Admiralty.

Torontonians flocked to Harbour Square wharf to inspect the submarine.

The 491-ton vessel now sits on the bottom of Lake Michigan in 300 feet of water, having been scuttled by the U.S. Navy in 1921.

The wreckage of UC-97 was located in 1992 by the Chicago-based company A&T Recovery.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/06/26/wharf_a_reminder_of_torontos_transformed_shoreline.html
 
diopter said:
Recognizing target is first step. then you have to close enough to kill it.

Question of deflection shooting.
Shooting platform and target are both moving, with high crosswinds and inertia of planes, bullets and shells making a complex 4 dimensional problem with gravity curving everything down and you then have to figure out where everything will be in the time it takes the bullet and shell to get there.
Further away both are, the worst it gets.
Then add high speed to further complicate matters
Traditionally, the best aces were good at shotgunning, not necessarily rifles.
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Buzz Beurling apparently had absolutely phenomenal long-distance eyesight. On one occasion, he told another airman that a flight was coming back and how many planes were in it, before anyone else could either hear the engines or see the planes even with binoculars. He was originally taught to fly by Bill Barker between the Wars, and must have picked up some of the tricks of the aerial hunter's trade from him as well.

If you read Beurling's reports from his aerial combats over Malta, he used to report not just shooting down an enemy aircraft but how many shots he had fired from his 20mm and where they had hit on the enemy plane.

And when he was off-duty, he apparently used to practice deflection shooting by hunting lizards with a Webley revolver. Malta had a huge population of some gecko-like lizards. The lizards would sit motionless on rocks or pavement (such as airstrips), then suddenly make blinding quick darts in unpredictable directions (either lunging for insect prey or evading possible dangers). Beurling would stand on the airstrip for hours, holding a Webley at armslength, watching a motionless lizard until it suddenly moved and then leading it and hitting it. And then doing it again with another lizard at a different distance and angle.
 
diopter said:
Notice how much more difficult Fighter to Fighter is compared to almost a strafing run on the bombers.
[youtube]HjlN49szFOc[/youtube]
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That sequence around 2:00 - the fighter seems to have had all damn day to work that B17 over, but no immediately lethal hits. No one shooting back - gotta think the inside of that bomber was a horrible place to be just then.
 
Ha! that's the old TO harbour commission building - a buddy just told me that it's now a steakhouse !

http://3.bp.########.com/_Zl5WEoyt_sQ/TIjUmy0VrsI/AAAAAAAAA4M/VghFzBwJF54/s1600/86c1560f.jpg
 
It is a steakhouse, and a swanky one at that. I had no idea the water line came that close to the building, that U-boat is "in" Lakeshore Ave.

slight correction: I was in the area today and Lakeshore actually is behind the Harbor Authority building (there's a model T on it in the pic), the road in front where the U-boat is actually called Harbor {Ave? Road? Street?}, "Harbour" nonetheless.
 
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