2013 IPSC Canadian Nationals

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ivan said:
I understand your sentiment and value your opinion, but I caution you not to cut off your nose to spite your face. It's difficult to know beforehand the quality of the match based on the match copy.... a more reliable indicator is the work done by those putting on the match.

I am optimistic that this year's Nationals will be a great one, but if it weren't that wouldn't prevent me from going the Nationals the year after (but it would stop me from going back to the particular range/province that put on the bad match).

-ivan-
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My reasons for not going this year are based strictly on the RO and work policy, I'd very much like to go to Summer Slam next year when it's not the nationals, from what I've seen they out on a great match (though hopefully the target distances are greater than indicated once they set up). I'll base my decision on what I see in the lead up to the match. I doubt I'll ever go to BC again. But Halifax is usually a really good match. As long as they don't ruin it by shooters ROing and work schedules I'd like to go. Otherwise I'll find something else to shoot.
 
PapaHotel01 said:
My reasons for not going this year are based strictly on the RO and work policy, I'd very much like to go to Summer Slam next year when it's not the nationals, from what I've seen they out on a great match (though hopefully the target distances are greater than indicated once they set up). I'll base my decision on what I see in the lead up to the match. I doubt I'll ever go to BC again. But Halifax is usually a really good match. As long as they don't ruin it by shooters ROing and work schedules I'd like to go. Otherwise I'll find something else to shoot.
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You are REALLY missing out on a great match by not going to the Nationals. I know previously you had shot a lot and are back into it. I have shot recently at the 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2012 Canadian Nationals, multiple provincials, USPSA Nationals in 2011, 2007 and 2010 Area 7,...etc..etc...Not to take anything away from those matches, but I doubt this match will be topped for years to come. Summer Slam has always been a great match,..this years Nationals will make previous Summer Slam seem mild in comparison.
 
tgt40 said:
Sure you do - the guys in the U.S. get paid. There are far more shooters than the top guys who place a premium on being competitive and we can certainly staff matches with them. Besides, maybe some people would relish in seeing matches run by others than these 'top guys'...:nest:

It would be interesting to find out exactly but take a big area match in the U.S., I'll bet the officials get more than the match shirt and fees paid for. Maybe their sense of volunteerism is higher?
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No RO's don't get paid in the states! I have worked three big matches in the last year. For the US IPSC Nationals I got match fee, breakfast and lunch, one supper and $400 for travel money (airfare was $600.). For the Florida open I got hotel, breakfast and lunch $50 for suppers and match fee. For area ones I got match fee, hotel and lunch. While it definitely helped lower my costs going to these matches it by no way paid me what it cost to get there.

Being a MD who ran one of the first Nationals with fixed RO/CRO's I can tell you it is expensive. I had if I remember correctly 40 match officials for a week. The hotel bill alone was over $8000. Match fees cost me another $10,000. Believe me when I say they deserved very thing I gave them and more!
 
Leading by example only works when others are willing to follow that example. Last time Ontario had the nats we set what should have been made the new standard. Full time staff, patch your own squads targets. Did anyone follow that example? Nope
 
maurice said:
You are REALLY missing out on a great match by not going to the Nationals. I know previously you had shot a lot and are back into it. I have shot recently at the 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2012 Canadian Nationals, multiple provincials, USPSA Nationals in 2011, 2007 and 2010 Area 7,...etc..etc...Not to take anything away from those matches, but I doubt this match will be topped for years to come. Summer Slam has always been a great match,..this years Nationals will make previous Summer Slam seem mild in comparison.
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I hear ya Mo
I've shot a lot of those same matches, and with the exception of the Canadian nationals they were all good matches. Some of the Canadian nationals were good matches ruined by things like competitors ROing other competitors. I know you'll have seen and heard some of the same things I have and I'm just done with all the friction it causes between provinces, teams and individuals. How many times have you seen someone from a provincial team gotten a penalty from another provinces team ad the first thing said is its because he was being hunted by the other team. Or that rulings were handed down to benefit one team or another. I have friends on both ends of this country and all up the middle and we all get along great on the range. But the minute you're at the nationals it becomes the whole easy vs west vs Ontario BS, which if its just in the spirit of friendly competition it's fine, but once the members from each province are ROing each other is just gets stupid and I really don't care to deal with it anymore. I'd rather go to Summer Slam and have a fun match and kick back with the locals over a beer after and enjoy myself and the company of other shooters.
And you know the funny thing? Having been a member of the national team with mostly west coast guys we got along great as a team, it was an awesome experience! The only place I see the friction being created is from shooters serving as ROs.
 
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Madness said:
Leading by example only works when others are willing to follow that example. Last time Ontario had the nats we set what should have been made the new standard. Full time staff, patch your own squads targets. Did anyone follow that example? Nope
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Not true. I remember that the Ontario Nationals in Kingston (2011) had signup sheets for "volunteers". That is not a full time staff. That is mandatory work scheduling by guilt/coercion and if you don't "volunteer"...well, you know what happens. 2009 (Nova Scotia) also had dedicated RO's (although it may have just been CRO's...2009 seems like a LOOOOONNNNGGGGGG time ago now) that worked long long days. It was because of the long days that the suggestion to have dedicated RO's at the Nationals in 2010 was pooh-poohed in BC for 2010. 2008 (Alberta) is still the first year that we tried to have dedicated RO's.

Comparing what works in Canada with the US is not really fair, as we really don't have the population and membership base to support a system easily. I believe the US has over 10x the current membership base of Canada?
 
If you make worth the effort, people will volunteer. Don't give out a shirt hat jacket or whatever to everyone who signs up and use those funds on the staff. In kingston there was no penalty for not volunteering.
The current norm is flawed and needs to be fixed. We won't know if something works or not untill will give it a legitimate try
 
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hungrybeagle said:
Not true. I remember that the Ontario Nationals in Kingston (2011) had signup sheets for "volunteers". That is not a full time staff. That is mandatory work scheduling by guilt/coercion and if you don't "volunteer"...well, you know what happens.
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I was there in 2010 and didn't work at the match. Still puzzled what I missed. So, why don't you tell us?

All it takes is a little planning. With 2 half days of shooting over 3 days it is not too hard to put everyone to work half day on a free day for this year match. That should provide more than enough workers for the match and quads should patch and reset props themselves. But I already heard that some people negotiated to not work this match at all...
 
The most shooters should do is tape targets, staff of some sort should reset steel and other props. Shooters doing that causes all sorts of complaints.
In all the nationals I've been to, I've never heard of a complaint about penalties being given due to regional differences.
 
Lol, cuz there's no politics here lol.
I like the way it was done last, with different division ROs running the mass of the shooters. So no top shooters ROd people from their same division.
 
hungrybeagle said:
Not true. I remember that the Ontario Nationals in Kingston (2011) had signup sheets for "volunteers". That is not a full time staff. That is mandatory work scheduling by guilt/coercion and if you don't "volunteer"...well, you know what happens.
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Totally untrue. There was plenty of dedicated RO's and match staff thanks to the help of the Soliders volunteering for patching duty. I volunteered soley to spend some range time with friends and put my sons to work and keep them out of trouble. Nobody was forced to work in any capacity and doubt anyone was guilted into volunteering by the Match Directors/Staff.
 
SVISTI1911 said:
Totally untrue. There was plenty of dedicated RO's and match staff thanks to the help of the Soliders volunteering for patching duty. I volunteered soley to spend some range time with friends and put my sons to work and keep them out of trouble. Nobody was forced to work in any capacity and doubt anyone was guilted into volunteering by the Match Directors/Staff.
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I'm not denying there were dedicated match staff. However, there was also a call for volunteers. I was one such volunteer and I do recall swapping timer duties with 2 other workers on my stage, although whether there were sufficient RO's on stage that I didn't have to do that, I don't recall. Perhaps Phil has a clearer memory, as he was in charge of the RO's at the match.
 
bizman89 said:
Can you give more details about all these penalties you were handed or saw handed out. What were you doing to draw these penalties? I would assume you can give specific examples. Curious about this.
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Holy crap where do I start, DQ's at the '95, '98' '99 nationals, several issues at the BC nationals in 2010, and all the stuff at the banquet last year. And that's just off the top of my head.
 
PapaHotel01 said:
I hear ya Mo
I've shot a lot of those same matches, and with the exception of the Canadian nationals they were all good matches. Some of the Canadian nationals were good matches ruined by things like competitors ROing other competitors. I know you'll have seen and heard some of the same things I have and I'm just done with all the friction it causes between provinces, teams and individuals. How many times have you seen someone from a provincial team gotten a penalty from another provinces team ad the first thing said is its because he was being hunted by the other team. Or that rulings were handed down to benefit one team or another. I have friends on both ends of this country and all up the middle and we all get along great on the range. But the minute you're at the nationals it becomes the whole easy vs west vs Ontario BS, which if its just in the spirit of friendly competition it's fine, but once the members from each province are ROing each other is just gets stupid and I really don't care to deal with it anymore. I'd rather go to Summer Slam and have a fun match and kick back with the locals over a beer after and enjoy myself and the company of other shooters.
And you know the funny thing? Having been a member of the national team with mostly west coast guys we got along great as a team, it was an awesome experience! The only place I see the friction being created is from shooters serving as ROs.
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####....sign me up.. Why wouldn't I travel half way across the country to not shoot, RO all day, spend time away from my family, and use my vacation time from work.
I would like to think that you are wrong, that our RO's have more integrity than that...
 
It's not whether or not our RO's have more integrity or not. It's the optics, most calls including some DQ's were completely legitimate, but the first words spoken are the "x" team was headhunting the other teams. In no other sport would you see competitors officiating each other for score. I stated this above but can you imagine what would happen if the leafs, Ottawa and Montreal all made the playoffs and in the first round the leafs players were officiating the games between Ottawa and Montreal? Evey call would be put under immediate suspicion of trying to pick which team they wanted to play in the next round. And if Ottawa won and went on to play the leafs and Montreal officiated? Any calls against the leafs would be seen as revenge.
I had this exact situation last year when I had to assess a penalty against a shooter on a stage I was ROing and had people tell me I should watch out because they may want to get even when I shot thee stage the next day. The fact that kind of discussion even happens is BS whether justified or not.
 
PapaHotel01 said:
It's not whether or not our RO's have more integrity or not. It's the optics, most calls including some DQ's were completely legitimate, but the first words spoken are the "x" team was headhunting the other teams. In no other sport would you see competitors officiating each other for score. I stated this above but can you imagine what would happen if the leafs, Ottawa and Montreal all made the playoffs and in the first round the leafs players were officiating the games between Ottawa and Montreal? Evey call would be put under immediate suspicion of trying to pick which team they wanted to play in the next round. And if Ottawa won and went on to play the leafs and Montreal officiated? Any calls against the leafs would be seen as revenge.
I had this exact situation last year when I had to assess a penalty against a shooter on a stage I was ROing and had people tell me I should watch out because they may want to get even when I shot thee stage the next day. The fact that kind of discussion even happens is BS whether justified or not.
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Pat,

It sounds just like rep hockey.......bad bad and even more bad.....
 
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