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- Leduc County, Alberta
Picture of the day
- Thread starter jwhc
- Start date
Do you mean "war stories" told over beers decades later by people who may have been there, or the history that is documented by hard evidence?
Yes, he might well have been, along with the rest of the British leadership class; the same as the Germans attempted to kill off the intelligentsia and leadership class in countries like Poland. I know this will be too much reading for some people, but have a look at Dr. Six's biography; it was going to be his job : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Six
Notice how he worked for Gehlen and then Porsche after the war and died a free man in 1975. "Victor's justice" again.
Otherwise you're sounding a lot like "The Valour and the Horror" and Cliff Chadderton put that BS to rest a long time ago, so I won't bother. Would you have hung Zeppelin commanders for dropping bombs on London in WWI? How about their superiors?
I held off commenting on Kurt Meyer and his ilk, but it's very simple: he was considered by the US authorities to be potentially useful. Same as General Ishi of Unit 731, Reinhard Gehlen, Werner von Braun, and thousands of others. The Canadian government of course did what their senior partners wanted and went along. We could have probably hired a few former inmates of Bergen-Belsen and given them a list of names and addresses, some Welrods and they would taken care of all that scum for us, but sadly we didn't. "Victor's Justice", you know.
Beats the hell out of me, mate. I don't imagine there's anyone left alive who knows why Meyer was dealt with so leniently while others just as awful were shot out of hand. The information is probably in a file folder somewhere in an archive, labelled "do not open until 2046". If we're lucky, we'll live long enough to find out.
Pictures. Today's arbitrarily selected theme: captured tanks.
In the background are the aqueducts that supplied Roman Carthage.
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Neat pic of the aqueducts. Always cool to see stuff "then and now".
Not a question of what I would want or not. As you've said, victors determine who's a criminal and who's a hero. The Russians determined that Erich Hartmann was a criminal, despite the fact that all he did was his duty, to an exceptional level. There are those who contend that the night bombing campaign against German industry (via the "dehousing" of civilians) was excessive and unnecessary. I'm not one of them. If I were, my late Grandpa (ex Aircraft Electrician, 1659 HCU, based in Topcliffe for the duration, and the guy most responsible for my lifelong fascination with Lancs and Halifaxes) would doubtless haunt my arse until I got my facts straight.
I'd like very much to read Mr. Chadderton's take on the issue. I assume this is the same Chadderton of the War Amps? Can you send me a link when you get a chance?
Not a question of what I would want or not. As you've said, victors determine who's a criminal and who's a hero. The Russians determined that Erich Hartmann was a criminal, despite the fact that all he did was his duty, to an exceptional level. There are those who contend that the night bombing campaign against German industry (via the "dehousing" of civilians) was excessive and unnecessary. I'm not one of them. If I were, my late Grandpa (ex Aircraft Electrician, 1659 HCU, based in Topcliffe for the duration, and the guy most responsible for my lifelong fascination with Lancs and Halifaxes) would doubtless haunt my arse until I got my facts straight.
I'd like very much to read Mr. Chadderton's take on the issue. I assume this is the same Chadderton of the War Amps? Can you send me a link when you get a chance?
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Where did I say that?
The measure of criminality is objective as it is determined by international law and the rules of war, at least in the Western World.
"Heroism" is a subjective label. Bravery is a more accurate term. Plenty of cruel, merciless and downright vicious soldiers have been physically brave.
As more than a few men who were called heroes have said, it is moral courage that is truly rare and valuable.
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Obviously a sore point. My apologies if I've offended or misunderstood.
I believe that, when the system works as it should, your contention that guilt is determined by a court of law (like Nuremberg) is correct. But how often do the victors in a conflict appear as the accused? There are excesses on both sides in war. I'm certain I don't need to tell you that. It's not a tea party, the men involved are not schoolmarms or kindergarten teachers, and the work they do is not a pleasant day out. Inevitably, both sides, to wildly varying degrees, commit atrocities. Prisoners are shot or abused. Liberties are taken with civilian populations. If the officer corps is on the ball, these activities are limited and punished internally. If they don't care, you get the wholesale rape of German civilian women by the victorious Red Army.
The victors find ways to either ignore or justify their excesses. And it's a rare victorious army that investigates, charges, prosecutes, convicts, and hangs its own men for crimes against the enemy. It's far easier (and morally correct, and politically acceptable) for a victor to hold a tribunal to determine the guilt and subsequent fate of scum like the surviving upper echelon of the NSDAP, or the subhumans who supported Pol Pot.
I did some reading re: Mr. Chadderton's efforts to have the record put straight at the CNWM. I certainly take his point that the phrasing of the plaque in question could be taken as very offensive. Those who maintain that the night bombing campaign against Germany was unduly cruel don't seem to grasp that until 1944, it was the ONLY way for England to take the war to Germany short of raids like Dieppe and St. Nazaire, neither of which made a huge strategic difference. I'm sure it also served a valuable morale purpose - if one lived in Coventry, it'd be pretty hard to have a great deal of sympathy for Dresden. But take someone like my old German barber, who was a kid living in a village outside Dresden, and still remembers seeing people staggering out of the city, burned beyond hope of survival, but still walking, just to get the hell out. How does he feel about someone who could orchestrate such an act?
Doesn't feckin' matter. His side lost. Had they won, would Herman Goering have been the "controversial figure" and Harris the one who stood trial? Thank God we'll never know.
Anyhow, picture thread:
KB 700, the "Ruhr Express". First Canadian built Lanc Mk. X.
Subsequently lost in England returning from her 49th mission. All crew survived.
Thanks to http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca for the pix and info. If you're ever in Nanton, AB, stop by and pet an old airplane.
I believe that, when the system works as it should, your contention that guilt is determined by a court of law (like Nuremberg) is correct. But how often do the victors in a conflict appear as the accused? There are excesses on both sides in war. I'm certain I don't need to tell you that. It's not a tea party, the men involved are not schoolmarms or kindergarten teachers, and the work they do is not a pleasant day out. Inevitably, both sides, to wildly varying degrees, commit atrocities. Prisoners are shot or abused. Liberties are taken with civilian populations. If the officer corps is on the ball, these activities are limited and punished internally. If they don't care, you get the wholesale rape of German civilian women by the victorious Red Army.
The victors find ways to either ignore or justify their excesses. And it's a rare victorious army that investigates, charges, prosecutes, convicts, and hangs its own men for crimes against the enemy. It's far easier (and morally correct, and politically acceptable) for a victor to hold a tribunal to determine the guilt and subsequent fate of scum like the surviving upper echelon of the NSDAP, or the subhumans who supported Pol Pot.
I did some reading re: Mr. Chadderton's efforts to have the record put straight at the CNWM. I certainly take his point that the phrasing of the plaque in question could be taken as very offensive. Those who maintain that the night bombing campaign against Germany was unduly cruel don't seem to grasp that until 1944, it was the ONLY way for England to take the war to Germany short of raids like Dieppe and St. Nazaire, neither of which made a huge strategic difference. I'm sure it also served a valuable morale purpose - if one lived in Coventry, it'd be pretty hard to have a great deal of sympathy for Dresden. But take someone like my old German barber, who was a kid living in a village outside Dresden, and still remembers seeing people staggering out of the city, burned beyond hope of survival, but still walking, just to get the hell out. How does he feel about someone who could orchestrate such an act?
Doesn't feckin' matter. His side lost. Had they won, would Herman Goering have been the "controversial figure" and Harris the one who stood trial? Thank God we'll never know.
Anyhow, picture thread:
KB 700, the "Ruhr Express". First Canadian built Lanc Mk. X.
Subsequently lost in England returning from her 49th mission. All crew survived.
Thanks to http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca for the pix and info. If you're ever in Nanton, AB, stop by and pet an old airplane.
Budget at least half a day for Nanton.
They have a complete Lanc and they also have sections of one which was built for a movie, so you can see and understand a LOT of construction details which just do not show normally, owing to the difficulty of getting a camera into some of the places. They also have LOT of other aircraft and bits and pieces and so forth.
MOST sobering to travel the length of that fuselage, knowing that the skin of the aircraft is no thicker than a matchbox cover, that the tension on the skin is a major part of the airplane's strength...... and that the standard German anti-aircraft gun was the 88.
Went there a number of years go with my friend Bjarne Aasland of Winnipeg. Ozzie used to fly in the Bomb-Aimer's position in the nose bubble of that exact aircraft, during its last years of service in Canada. When the Museum found that he is a licensed, certified Airframe Mechanic on that model of Lancaster, the Museum Director put an arm around him and asked what he was doing for the next 5 years! We almost didn't get out of there!
But it is WORTH a chunk of a day, just to see.
Be sure to leave a donation for restoration: every loonie helps. And buy lotsa books, too!
They have a complete Lanc and they also have sections of one which was built for a movie, so you can see and understand a LOT of construction details which just do not show normally, owing to the difficulty of getting a camera into some of the places. They also have LOT of other aircraft and bits and pieces and so forth.
MOST sobering to travel the length of that fuselage, knowing that the skin of the aircraft is no thicker than a matchbox cover, that the tension on the skin is a major part of the airplane's strength...... and that the standard German anti-aircraft gun was the 88.
Went there a number of years go with my friend Bjarne Aasland of Winnipeg. Ozzie used to fly in the Bomb-Aimer's position in the nose bubble of that exact aircraft, during its last years of service in Canada. When the Museum found that he is a licensed, certified Airframe Mechanic on that model of Lancaster, the Museum Director put an arm around him and asked what he was doing for the next 5 years! We almost didn't get out of there!
But it is WORTH a chunk of a day, just to see.
Be sure to leave a donation for restoration: every loonie helps. And buy lotsa books, too!
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Did the walkthrough a couple of times. Trying to get out of that, over the spar and out the back door, while spinning, in the dark? Unless God really is your co-pilot, it's not going to happen.
Here's a medevac jeep south of Ortona:
The lad on the wheel certainly looks well kitted out. Nice 'stache, too.
Obviously a sore point. My apologies if I've offended or misunderstood.
I believe that, when the system works as it should, your contention that guilt is determined by a court of law (like Nuremberg) is correct. But how often do the victors in a conflict appear as the accused? There are excesses on both sides in war. I'm certain I don't need to tell you that. It's not a tea party, the men involved are not schoolmarms or kindergarten teachers, and the work they do is not a pleasant day out. Inevitably, both sides, to wildly varying degrees, commit atrocities. Prisoners are shot or abused. Liberties are taken with civilian populations. If the officer corps is on the ball, these activities are limited and punished internally. If they don't care, you get the wholesale rape of German civilian women by the victorious Red Army.
The victors find ways to either ignore or justify their excesses. And it's a rare victorious army that investigates, charges, prosecutes, convicts, and hangs its own men for crimes against the enemy. It's far easier (and morally correct, and politically acceptable) for a victor to hold a tribunal to determine the guilt and subsequent fate of scum like the surviving upper echelon of the NSDAP, or the subhumans who supported Pol Pot.
I did some reading re: Mr. Chadderton's efforts to have the record put straight at the CNWM. I certainly take his point that the phrasing of the plaque in question could be taken as very offensive. Those who maintain that the night bombing campaign against Germany was unduly cruel don't seem to grasp that until 1944, it was the ONLY way for England to take the war to Germany short of raids like Dieppe and St. Nazaire, neither of which made a huge strategic difference. I'm sure it also served a valuable morale purpose - if one lived in Coventry, it'd be pretty hard to have a great deal of sympathy for Dresden. But take someone like my old German barber, who was a kid living in a village outside Dresden, and still remembers seeing people staggering out of the city, burned beyond hope of survival, but still walking, just to get the hell out. How does he feel about someone who could orchestrate such an act?
Doesn't feckin' matter. His side lost. Had they won, would Herman Goering have been the "controversial figure" and Harris the one who stood trial? Thank God we'll never know.
Anyhow, picture thread:
KB 700, the "Ruhr Express". First Canadian built Lanc Mk. X.
Subsequently lost in England returning from her 49th mission. All crew survived.
Thanks to http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca for the pix and info. If you're ever in Nanton, AB, stop by and pet an old airplane.
Last winter I was in Toronto working and across the road from me was the old De havilland hangar (where Canadian Mosies where built) which is now an aviation museum. Inside there is a Lanc that is being restored. The Lancs name is the Ruhr Express (possibly Ruhr Express II?). Is there any relation between the two aircraft?
Great museum lots of odds and ends there.
What museum isn't "Great"...oh ya the Albrecht Museum in Steyr, Austria. Complete misnomer and a complete let down. If you are ever in Steyr do not waste your time, the most interesting thing there was a large DC motor that was stuffed into the corner of the parking lot.
BTW on a side note that aviation museum in Toronto is going to be turned in to a hockey rink/sports complex if it hasn't already, FFS!
Here's a medevac jeep south of Ortona:
The lad on the wheel certainly looks well kitted out. Nice 'stache, too.
Based on his kit, I would guess the driver was normally a motorcycle dispatch rider. At least the only part of a motorcycle dispatch rider's kit he's missing is the motorcycle itself - maybe it was also a casualty, so he got pressed into service driving an "ambulance" jeep instead.
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
More captured goodness:
FW/JU "Mistel"!More captured goodness:
unreal...quite the progression from a '36 Stuka
Fieseler Fi-103 Reichenberg: one of the prototypes for the V-1 "Buzz-bomb".
Only a single piloted craft was built and equipped with controls in an early stage of the program when the things would not fly correctly.
Hanna Reitsch, one of Hitler's favourite women and also a darned good pilot, was small enough to get into the thing, so she flew it, discovering that the craft had trim problems and how much.
Thing went into production and proceeded to wipe a goodly portion of London from the map.
These craft were extremely effective for the investment, doing great damage at a very low cost in German manpower, especially as compared to the losses in aircrew from the bomber offensive.
If you like, it was the first Cruise Missile.
Only a single piloted craft was built and equipped with controls in an early stage of the program when the things would not fly correctly.
Hanna Reitsch, one of Hitler's favourite women and also a darned good pilot, was small enough to get into the thing, so she flew it, discovering that the craft had trim problems and how much.
Thing went into production and proceeded to wipe a goodly portion of London from the map.
These craft were extremely effective for the investment, doing great damage at a very low cost in German manpower, especially as compared to the losses in aircrew from the bomber offensive.
If you like, it was the first Cruise Missile.
