Training

metcalfe said:
I agree with the 'practice what you preach'. If an instructor told me to unload and show clear before holstering, I'd be pissed out of principle. I don't think that rule should apply here as it is. If I'm going to a private range in the USofA, where most civilians would be training for ccw, I expect to have a loaded gun on my hip for longer than a few moments.
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This is sometimes dependant on range rules, especially in Canada.

Also, if this were a complete novice course, I think it would be in the instructors best interest to have students "unload and show clear", especially until he could verify that his students weren't complete clown shoe wearers.

Also TDC, 5 round courses do not suck. I've been through many, and I've learned a lot on all of them. Course round count should not be a deciding factor, course content should be. Some courses that are low on round count are very high on learning.
 
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Clobbersauras said:
This is sometimes dependant on range rules, especially in Canada.

Also, if this were a complete novice course, I think it would be in the instructors best interest to have students "unload and show clear", especially until he could verify that his students weren't complete clown shoe wearers.
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It's understandable, I just disagree with rules based around the lowest common denominator.

I'd sooner have anyone breaking one of the 4 safety rules berated and dismissed from the course(even if that someone were me), rather than having to suffer through yet another level of rules designed for people not bright enough to grasp that a few simple things keep us all safe.
re: I have never heard of a holstered pistol going off...and most people who shoot themselves in the leg re-holstering, probably only make that mistake once. :D

I wish the command here after a course of fire was 'reload and holster'. My gun doesn't even have a hammer, but I have to pull the trigger on an empty gun in order to make it "safe"...wat?? My gun is safe the moment it is holstered.

I'm huge on "All guns are always loaded" and since I trust people who treat them as such, they might as well be loaded.
 
Being that your current interest seems to be aimed towards IPSC you should be focused on your BB. After that for training, time spent with or around top IPSC/USPSA shooters will prove to be invaluable.
I see no point in anything that offers training in "tactical" or ccw as it has no real value for a Canadian.
 
john simmons said:
Being that your current interest seems to be aimed towards IPSC you should be focused on your BB. After that for training, time spent with or around top IPSC/USPSA shooters will prove to be invaluable.
I see no point in anything that offers training in "tactical" or ccw as it has no real value for a Canadian.
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You shoot your way, I'll shoot mine - I have no issue with competition shooters running around with scope sighted, compensated 'assault pistols' shooting everything in sight in the 'assault course' as long as you don't have issues with guys like me drawing from concealed and shooting real guns.
 
enefgee said:
You shoot your way, I'll shoot mine - I have no issue with competition shooters running around with scope sighted, compensated 'assault pistols' shooting everything in sight in the 'assault course' as long as you don't have issues with guys like me drawing from concealed and shooting real guns.
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I didn't ask for your opinion regarding open division pistols. I answered the OP's question regarding IPSC.
 
Clobbersauras said:
This is sometimes dependant on range rules, especially in Canada.

Also, if this were a complete novice course, I think it would be in the instructors best interest to have students "unload and show clear", especially until he could verify that his students weren't complete clown shoe wearers.

Also TDC, 5 round courses do not suck. I've been through many, and I've learned a lot on all of them. Course round count should not be a deciding factor, course content should be. Some courses that are low on round count are very high on learning.
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Range rules? Yeah, not on any course I've attended. Its a closed door event and its really no ones business how or what gets conducted. I'm with metcalfe, if your range or training school doesn't treat you like a competent adult, then its a joke and doesn't deserve my business. As for 5 round courses, yeah they suck. I'm not talking about course round counts, I'm talking about course limiting magazine capacities. Its really difficult to run a drill on using cover from multiple positions with multiple targets when you have to reload between each target, and again between each position. You can't carry enough mags, there isn't enough time, and its downright frustrating. Pistol courses aren't as bad, but it is nice to run your gun with the capacity god intended. The Vtac 1-5 drill, team drills, firing while moving, these all require standard capacity magazines in a rifle to be done quickly, efficiently and with some time left in the day for other material.

metcalfe said:
It's understandable, I just disagree with rules based around the lowest common denominator.

I'd sooner have anyone breaking one of the 4 safety rules berated and dismissed from the course(even if that someone were me), rather than having to suffer through yet another level of rules designed for people not bright enough to grasp that a few simple things keep us all safe.
re: I have never heard of a holstered pistol going off...and most people who shoot themselves in the leg re-holstering, probably only make that mistake once. :D

I wish the command here after a course of fire was 'reload and holster'. My gun doesn't even have a hammer, but I have to pull the trigger on an empty gun in order to make it "safe"...wat?? My gun is safe the moment it is holstered.

I'm huge on "All guns are always loaded" and since I trust people who treat them as such, they might as well be loaded.
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john simmons said:
Being that your current interest seems to be aimed towards IPSC you should be focused on your BB. After that for training, time spent with or around top IPSC/USPSA shooters will prove to be invaluable.
I see no point in anything that offers training in "tactical" or ccw as it has no real value for a Canadian.
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The term "tactical" is grossly over used, and I too am sick of hearing everything with "tactical" plastered ahead of or behind it. That being said, what is taught during a quality personal defense, mil, or LE course is still just the basics, the fundamentals. They're applied in a more realistic manner under more realistic conditions. They are in no way less useful than the very same fundamentals being taught by the big names in shooting games. Target medium doesn't change the tactics and or skills being taught. As for no value for Canadians, you're dead wrong. Not all who take training are civilians, some are LE some are MIL. For the civilian that trains, they too have the right to self defence and some carry a gun daily regardless of our silly laws on paper. For the more "law abiding" there is predator protection from bears and the like. Learning to snap the rifle up on target quickly and applying a controlled pair(or 5) while moving laterally, just might be vital to ones survival. The same can be said for malfunction clearing or any other tactical or skill being taught.

As for spending time with "top IPSC/USPSA shooters" goes. How would one go about doing this if said shooter lives on the other side of the country, or in another country? How many top shooters really want to waste their precious practice time teaching a newbie how to apply the fundamentals? Heaven forbid our schedules don't align, now what?? I have to ask, do you believe that after BB there is no other training needed, or that no other training is beneficial? Why the heavy weight behind BB??

TDC
 
I know I'm in the minority of people on here who have actually taken more than one course (there are some in this thread that may have even taken more than me), and I'm probably the only one in this thread who's taught probably 50 times that many courses/classes. And I've taken a lot of them.
The simplest way to choose a course, of the ones available to you, is to get an honest assessment of your current skills. Then decide what you want to improve on and look for a course that features that. If there are none available, then pick the next closest one to your desire. If you can't find anything at all, then take any course you can get on with a reputable instructor. You will learn something, and may even find that you like it more than the thing you were looking for. I've trained with instructors that I can out shoot, and still learned a ton. I've taken courses with guys that can out shoot me without even trying and come away feeling like I wasted a lot of my time, although I still learned stuff.
If you want to improve your fundamentals and improve your overall gun handling skills, IPSC oriented courses can't be beat. You will run your gun hard, your body hard, and your mind hard. At the end of it, you will come away a much better shooter, with, normally, better than most gun handling skills. I would not say the BB teaches you that, but you typically need the BB to get on some of those other courses, as it does teach you to be safe with a gun, if nothing else.
 
TDC said:
Range rules? Yeah, not on any course I've attended.
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Good to hear there are ranges out there that permit it. Almost every range I've been on does not permit off-the-line pistols being carried hot by non members. Whatever their reasons, it's their call, and the instructor on any course simply abides by the parameters set out by the host club.
 
Slavex said:
I've taken courses with guys that can out shoot me without even trying and come away feeling like I wasted a lot of my time, although I still learned stuff.
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The best athletes do not often make the best trainers. Experience and skill are usually (but not always) helpful, and there is much more to a gifted instructor than simply performance. Even though that is the metric that is most easily compared (and advertised)
 
alpining said:
Good to hear there are ranges out there that permit it. Almost every range I've been on does not permit off-the-line pistols being carried hot by non members. Whatever their reasons, it's their call, and the instructor on any course simply abides by the parameters set out by the host club.
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What difference does carrying a HOLSTERED hot gun have over handling a HOT gun? The answer is none. A cold line is a BS excuse to include the stupid in society who can't apply four rules and for those without the willingness to kick a$$ and ban those who fail to abide by them. Instead, we get dumbed down kiddie ranges where the next foray into "safety" will include tying the muzzle of your rifle to the bench and welding your pistol to a post... A cold range is reason enough to seek training south of the border.

TDC
 
TDC said:
A cold range is reason enough to seek training south of the border.
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I see your general point. Personally, I disagree with this statement. I think there are more important things to be gained in training than a few hours or days of walking around hot.
 
Your in Edmonton stop in at Rising Sun Tactical and talk to Mike. He used to put on a pretty good one day course, he may still do it.
 
Sorry TDC but i can't pleasure a response to your post because in the end i really just don't care. That and your seemingly limited and narrow minded views on how you see things gets boring.
 
alpining said:
I see your general point. Personally, I disagree with this statement. I think there are more important things to be gained in training than a few hours or days of walking around hot.
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Some people carry off the range more than on. The point of a hot range is the responsibility it brings. A cold range dumbs it down and that's when people get shot. The whole two methods of handling a firearm bs. All the courses I've taken were hot ranges. The skills ranged from near zero experience to very experienced, no one had an nd. On several courses we shot past other students and on others we carried two hot guns! Wow were we ever dangerous. Hot meant chambered as well for those not following and hot guns during classroom and lunch. Imagine that, being treated like an adult.

Tdc
 
I fail to see the point of a cold range - if "all guns are always loaded" why go through all the administrative loading and unloading to perversely become the exception that proves the rule (no pun intended). If you're responsible enough to own and shoot a gun at the range, you should be responsible enough to holster one with one up the pipe. Personally, if I'm at the range - in the area of the shooting bays, it's holstered and loaded, it may or may not also be concealed - weather dependant. If that bothers you, feel free not to say hi.
 
enefgee said:
I fail to see the point of a cold range - if "all guns are always loaded" why go through all the administrative loading and unloading to perversely become the exception that proves the rule (no pun intended). If you're responsible enough to own and shoot a gun at the range, you should be responsible enough to holster one with one up the pipe. Personally, if I'm at the range - in the area of the shooting bays, it's holstered and loaded, it may or may not also be concealed - weather dependant. If that bothers you, feel free not to say hi.
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Out of sight out of mind. ;)
effinggoof said:
Would you mall ninjas really not take a course from an IPSC guy just because you will have to show clear and holster empty?
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That depends on the course content. As I mentioned earlier, the fundamentals are all the same, so if I had a choice between a cold range school and a hot range, the answer is obvious. One of the two treats you like an adult and isn't scared of the tools he uses. I've heard of many ND's in the "safe handling area" of IPSC matches where ammo is not permitted. How could that be????? Yet I have never seen anyone having an ND on course. Not saying it can't or doesn't happen, but its clear that the "cold range" mentality isn't real effective either.

I personally have a problem with the whole unloading and showing clear process as well. Depressing the trigger is not a part of the unloading process. Remove magazine, empty chamber via the action is unloading and showing clear as you both unloaded, and shown clear. Is load and make ready to involve inserting a magazine, chambering a round and depressing the trigger now? Both commands ask for two specific movements, yet some dumba$$ decided that unloading should involve a third unmentioned action which leads to an ND, as all ND's involve activating the trigger. What makes this practice especially dumb and dangerous is the practice of NOT looking where the sights(and thusly the gun) is pointed while they dry fire. This is done under the belief that the firearm is indeed unloaded. If you truly believe the firearm is unloaded, and decide to ignore one of the fundamental four rules, then why do you depress the trigger? Its an ignorant gamer habit that is perpetuated by people who refuse to question what they're asked to do and have no concept of the fundamental four rules.

TDC
 
I have no problem with a hot range.

I have no problem with a cold range.

When I pay for instruction, it's not about the course/instructor/range validating my ego by letting me carry a loaded gun, it's about learning stuff from people who are better than me.
 
I only let people I know and trust run their guns hot at my classes. I've been on lots of hot range courses and I've seen numerous NDs on a bunch of them. Including from instructors while we were circled to talk.
As for the dryfire portion of the ICHDAH, How else would you drop the hammer or striker, universally across multiple gun platforms? Since by law, IPSC, competitors in Canada can't carry hot from range torrange, we need to make sure they are empty. The dry fire is the final way of proving this. And yes I teach my students to make it an aimed shot. It's lazy to do otherwise.
 
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