.243 vs .30-30 on deer?

I've got a pretty good handle on the principles that relate to bullet expansion. I'm not surprised you like Bergers, many do, they just don't fit the performance envelope that I prefer, which is reliable uniform expansion over a broad impact velocity range, combined with high weight retention, to ensure deep, straight line penetration. I suppose that if I wanted a long range game bullet I'd have to give them a look. A minor oops, I guess, but not one that discredits my findings.

I'm not a real Berger fan but I'm not so naïve as to say they aren't a hunting bullet. I'm still interested in this theory of your where expanded diameter is relative to bullet length. Having run hundreds of bullets through test mediums I can honestly say I've never seen the correlation. Perhaps you could explain the physics?
 
I don't care if you say you are a retired steel worker and show a hundred pics of a grey haired geezer... I believe that you have to be a pimple faced 15 year old kid...

Maybe back in the early 80's you'd be right. Hoyt, I laugh at the ridiculing of others, try to discredit accomplishments, calling ridiculous unethical. Jealousy from others that can't do what others have set out to do an have accomplished. Some people just can't accept defeat as well as others. Read the posts, I would not attempt any 700yd shots, but I won't try to dicredit others who can and do.
Actually it's time to pack my stuff and go watch my bait barrels with gun in hand, uno kind of like shooting fish in a barrel as some would discredit it as here in Ontario....
 
A good .243 bullet, one that weighs between 85 and 100 grs can be counted on to expand to .45 caliber, and will probably penetrate a foot or slightly more. As such it will easily kill a deer, but switch to a cup and core bullet, and I am of the opinion that the .243 tops out at 100 pound game.

You'r On which big game animals is 12" of penetration sufficient when you're faced with something other than a broadside shot? Once your cartridge's terminal performance has limited you to only one particular shot, your cartridge selection is specific rather than general purpose. The more critical the shot angle becomes, the more specific its use becomes, thereby making it the expert's choice rather than the best choice for everyone.

If the bullet was properly constructed, it would provide a larger expanded frontal area on the one hand while at the same time producing sufficient momentum to achieve the 18"+ of penetration necessary to take it out of the wolf gun category.

Sure, if you are hunting deer with a 6mm, your best bet is to choose a premium bullet. The low impact velocity of the .30/30 is less demanding on the construction of the bullet, so any .30 caliber cup and core bullet of suitable shape and weight will work fine. Even cast bullets have proven to be good performers in the ole girl.

Quick question Boomer: how many deer have you killed with a 243, and how much penetration did you find on average?

Personally, I've killed 40+ big game animals with a 6mm remmie, and only recovered maybe 3 or 4 bullets total. Quite a few of those (over half at least) were NOT fully broadside shots, and a few of them were length wise pokes. Never lost an animal, and most of them didn't go anywhere except straight down. (Although, I can remember a few rather memorable tumbles down some hills).
Just curious on how many animals you base your 12" of penetration hypothesis on.
 
Maybe back in the early 80's you'd be right. Hoyt, I laugh at the ridiculing of others, try to discredit accomplishments, calling ridiculous unethical. Jealousy from others that can't do what others have set out to do an have accomplished. Some people just can't accept defeat as well as others. Read the posts, I would not attempt any 700yd shots, but I won't try to dicredit others who can and do.
Actually it's time to pack my stuff and go watch my bait barrels with gun in hand, uno kind of like shooting fish in a barrel as some would discredit it as here in Ontario....

Bear baiting is a legitimate hunting tactic... Those who try to discredit either have never tried it or walked to a bait with an outfitter, shot a bear and declared this "too easy"... ask the outfitter if it was "too easy!"

But let's bring that home to the current discussion... I have shot 40+ archery bears personally and guided sports to in excess of 250 more... They were all shot at ranges from 10 feet to 30 yards... I'm betting you are not hunting bears with a .243 (although it would do the job at 20 yards)... And I'm betting that your bait station is not 688 yards from your stand... So here is my final point with you... I don't care what equipment is used or how skilled a "shooter" is, on game, there are just TOO MANY "uncontrolable" factors that can, and most likey will, lead to a wounded animal... Wind, human error, animal movement, equipment failure, weather, bad luck (twig/grass contact), or just plain old chance... It is just NOT worth it and IMO the heightened risk of such shots render them unethicaln whether they are legal or not... Especially with a marginal caliber. I cringe at the reposting of such video's... Good luck bear hunting.
 
Bear baiting is a legitimate hunting tactic... Those who try to discredit either have never tried it or walked to a bait with an outfitter, shot a bear and declared this "too easy"... ask the outfitter if it was "too easy!"

Kinda like long range shooting....lol
 
Not to mention any other hunters or hikers lurking about within that 688 yards zone? Unless of course it's arctic or bald prairie.
 
Bambi won't care what cartridge kills him. Between those two, it's more about the rifle. The typical .30-30 being a lever action and the .243 a bolt, there's no comparision. Mind you, you have to be abe to hit the kill zone no matter what rifle you use.
 
I prefer the 243 Winchester because of it's versatility for big game, varmint, accuracy and longer range capabilities over the 30-30 Winchester.
 
I'm not a real Berger fan but I'm not so naïve as to say they aren't a hunting bullet. I'm still interested in this theory of your where expanded diameter is relative to bullet length. Having run hundreds of bullets through test mediums I can honestly say I've never seen the correlation. Perhaps you could explain the physics?

Then you know that bullet expansion is not relative to bullet length, but to core or cavity length; that is the only portion of the bullet available for expansion. But expansion is only part of the question . . . I feel like we've been down this road before, but never mind. The stability of the bullet is subject to the degree of upset and to the presence of, or to a lack of, a linear diameter to rotate around and to its rate of rotation. Stability has a great effect on depth of penetration. A bullet that simply expands into a button has little stability, and its direction of travel is largely a matter of chance. Should the radius of the expansion exceed the shank length, bullet stability is impacted negatively.

So bullet design is a question of dimensional balance, although this balance can be manipulated through a number of construction styles such as solid shanks, partitions, dual cores, and mono-metal hollow points. Therefore a shank that extends behind the expanded section of the bullet is necessary for stability and straight line penetration. If the core of the bullet extends deep into the shank, as in the case of cup and core bullets, then true, only about a third of the core length will be available for expansion. Likewise the open cavity of the TSX, which within caliber is pretty much the same irrespective of weight, doesn't allow for larger upset as the bullet shank, rather than the length of it's nose determines it's weight. But solid shanks and partitions both can exceed the performance limitations of cup and core bullets.

As previously stated, the amount of upset which occurs from any one bullet is determined by the design and construction of the bullet, the impact velocity, and to the density of the target. If the impact velocity is low, bullet upset will be less, if the target is a lightly built antelope, the bullet will upset less then it would on buffalo, and at extreme range, a bullet might show little or no expansion at all. The Magpul long range shooting video mentions shooting through a pig carcass at 1 mile. This isn't because the .308 is such a deadly long range round, but because the impact velocity of 800 fps, is half of what is needed for any upset to occur, so none did, and a pass through was the result.
 
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Quick question Boomer: how many deer have you killed with a 243, and how much penetration did you find on average?

Personally, I've killed 40+ big game animals with a 6mm remmie, and only recovered maybe 3 or 4 bullets total. Quite a few of those (over half at least) were NOT fully broadside shots, and a few of them were length wise pokes. Never lost an animal, and most of them didn't go anywhere except straight down. (Although, I can remember a few rather memorable tumbles down some hills).
Just curious on how many animals you base your 12" of penetration hypothesis on.

Deer? Nope, but I've body shot enough and seen seals shot with .243s, 6mms, .22-250s and .223s to get an idea. Yes, sometimes the bullet makes a pass through, other times it hits a bone and penetrates not 12" but 4". Honesty compels me to admit that I've also seen .30 caliber bullet failures. I will though, and say that a scoped .243, loaded with a good bullet, is an excellent choice for the chore. Seals are much denser through the body than a deer, although seal hunters as a rule prefer head shots to prevent the seal from escaping into it's hole; there are exceptions to the rule.

If my idea for a 6mm bullet ever sees the light of day, it may well bring the .243 into the realm of a general purpose big game cartridge, although some seem to believe it was always there. The old 6mm Lee Navy cartridge from 1895 used a 135 gr bullet, although a lighter bullet was chosen in 1897, so the concept isn't a particularly new one, or radical departure.
 
Have yet to see a deer with big enough bones to stop an 85gr TSX or 100gr nosler at the 4" mark...... Hell, have yet to see a deer with thick enough bones to stop a 45gr TSX from a 223 from complete penetration to the goodies.

So basically what you are saying then, is that you are using a different animal completely and varmint bullets, to base your "advice" off of?
 
I'm going to respond without reading all the nonsense beforehand. Here's my opinion. Pick a rifle, pick a caliber, pick a bullet suitable for the task, shoot the deer in the vital area. This caliber debate is far too subjective. If you put a bullet where it needs to go it will do the trick. Dead is dead. Move on.
 
Then you know that bullet expansion is not relative to bullet length, but to core or cavity length; .

My experience has been that it's relative to original diameter.....I haven't seen a 59% increase in frontal area by adding 10 grains to a bullet, in fact I haven't seen any increase but maybe I've got something to learn....I'll keep an eye out for it.
 
Have yet to see a deer with big enough bones to stop an 85gr TSX or 100gr nosler at the 4" mark...... Hell, have yet to see a deer with thick enough bones to stop a 45gr TSX from a 223 from complete penetration to the goodies.

So basically what you are saying then, is that you are using a different animal completely and varmint bullets, to base your "advice" off of?

No. The observations I made where premium bullets were used with either 6mm or .22 centerfires was positive. For that matter I did not say that it was unreasonable to use a 6mm on deer sized game when premium bullets were chosen. But I did note that the use of premium bullets was beneficial where big game was concerned, and that a superior bullet would produce superior results, should folks insisted on hunting larger than deer game species with rifles chambered for these cartridges. Yes, seals are different than deer, but to get an idea of how a particular bullet performs in tissue, the observations with respect to seals are relevant.
 
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