How to get more people involved in Competitive Shooting

what i'm hearing is that we have tons of options and good idea to bring shooters to the line. I dont agree will all "sporter" class definition provided above as weight limit is at 12pounds and Savage 12 excluded. I think that this series of rifle IS the reference for beginner to start in the sport. Those rifle are accurate enough so the shooter can learn to read conditions, and to reload proper ammo. If rifle dont shoot, shooter dont know what he's done correctly.

Scott , i hear ya. What pisses me off is someone pretending that there is a movement to change FTR rules to MEET is weekness. This is not honest and a big disrespect for shooters who like the sport. Its like complaining that the "bang" is too loud !

regards
 
WG300, if that comment is directed at me. Understood but I am not the US shooters chatting about this on the line in Raton. Shooters from other countries also showed concern.

Idle chatter? Sure but last year, there were only a couple I heard bringing this up. Aug, quite a number more. Where will it go? Who knows, but it is starting to be discussed and that is how policies eventually get changed.

FTR will self limit in a season or two anyways. I have developed technology that keeps me competitive at any level so it really doesn't matter either way. In fact, bring on the arms war. Gives me a larger market to sell my solutions into

What will not be capped anytime soon are the unnecessary risks done to load to perceived safe levels. The only true "sign" for a pressure reading is with pressure reading tools. Observation of cases and ease of ejection are lousy indicators of that.

Sure sign that things are getting overboard is when overbuilt brass is damaged in 1 or 2 firings. This brass was pressure tested in the UK to handle 70K plus loads without issue. If it breaks, how hot was that ammo?

Or shooters getting creative mixing up their own powder formulations. Apparently Duplex loading was used in Raton - to what degree, not my concern except one bad rd, and guns can come apart.

So the point of all this IS SAFETY. There is NO proper pressure testing for what is presently played with in FTR. NO major powder, bullet, lab has done any true pressure testing to confirm what some receipes being used is safe.

Of course, we have to first decide on what is safe!

Does it matter if my rifle shows no deress and I get both super velocity and accuracy? Only if it causes the metal to fatigue prematurely and someone wears rifle bits.

Factory or custom, the steel is essentially the same. Tolerance are all over the map but the material is finite.

I had the misfortune of researching this years back and the info was pretty clear. ALL SAAMI certified receivers satisfy a rigerous test process (White Laboratories was one of the main test labs). They have to survive so many rds at various pressure levels.

At what we consider magnum pressures (65K), you are in the 100 to 200K range - extrapolated due to metal fatigue (try and dig up the report and see for yourself).

At proof pressure loads, around 80K. The actions last 20% or so. I have a proof pressure case, no visible signs of anything. It came out of the factory Rem receiver with a flick.

Over that, things break down real fast with duty cycles estimated in the 1000s.

If safety is truly a concern, someone needs to start testing what we are using and how close to the edge it is.

IPSC went through this with guns grenading as shooters tried to make major by hotrodding small cases. They eventually lowered the major level and the sport has not had a serious incident I am aware of since.

The irony with FTR, there is nothing you can hotrod that will keep you in the 5 ring if you miss a 2mph wind change

230gr Hyrid going 2700fps (yes, you read that right and I had a great chat with the shooter who used it in Raton. Could have bought his barrels too!)

JBM indicates a 2mph 90deg wind will push this combo 1moa at 1000yds.

My dull boring combo.... 1.5moa under the same condition. My next combo should move me to 1.2MOA and this is definitely not a crazy hot load.

And I will spend all my efforts learning to read the winds.

Enticing more shooters has to include access, affordability, challenge, positive environment, and most importantly SAFETY.

YMMV.
Jerry
 
As I shoot a 34in barrel, sending a 200gr at 2770, I though also you were talking about me. Its strange that a friend of mine, who shoot a 30in, 200gr at 2650 is not in the discussion. Seems like he’s not “dangerous”. Put that same THROAT AND LOAD in a 34in barrel and it goes out at 2750…then WOW, he’s dangerous now !

I also been to Raton, even if I talked to tons of people, never heard about changing the rules. Maybe got something to do with the fact I’m not promoting it !

I remember that when you tried my rifle, one round was enough to “PRESERVE” your shoulder.…Don’t HIDE BEHIND SAFETY to avoid weekness and promote true intentions.

You are making a awesome technical statement, prooving that you READ a lot. That do not bring any jugement though. To verify safety, you only need the following: bolt lift and primers. No need to bring the NASA to the line. It was also mention that you step up in “technology” and will be up to the task for now on, first, there is no need for technology to push a bullet fast, just throat it long, buy a long pipe and put powder, it will go fast AND SAFE. Sell your solution, cant even make your own gun shoot….damn !

How can a guy that make that much of a statement, took that long to figure out a 223 was not in the game, how come that someone with so much knowledge brought a rifle that shoot like an absolute piece of #### in Raton.

FTR will self limit in a year or 2…..?

Chat with a guy that push a 230 at 2700…so what. What length of pipe, specify the powder, if single base, its fast, if double, its not.

Lab testing….material resistance…..nice statement but…blablabla….watch your bolt and primer, that’s it.

Need to define what is safe…dam what are you saying !

You definitely proove being a nice person, but for god sake your on the wrong page !

Jonathan L.
 
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Whoa, ok. How about we edit out some of that personal stuff.

Here is some pressure data with the 210s. 168 gr. FGMM registered at ~56k in the same barrel.

I'm pretty sure that if a 26" tube with a tight, short throated 95 Palma chamber can launch 210s at 2625 fps at safe pressure, a 34" tube with a generous long throated chamber can do 2770 fps. with 200s with the right powder and still have some overhead for temperature shift.
 
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kombayotch said:
Whoa, ok. How about we edit out some of that personal stuff.

Here is some pressure data with the 210s. 168 gr. FGMM registered at ~56k in the same barrel.

I'm pretty sure that if a 26" tube with a tight, short throated 95 Palma chamber can launch 210s at 2625 fps at safe pressure, a 34" tube with a generous long throated chamber can do 2770 fps. with 200s with the right powder and still have some overhead for temperature shift.
Click to expand...

here we go !

I know I went hard, just exhausted being pointed as "potential danger" because someone don't have the knowledge to figure things out.
 
How to get more shooter involved ? A good one or two day clinic, including both shooting and marking the target. For new shooter who will probably come with hunting rifle and low scope magnification, why not use the 600 yard target for all distance ? For new shooter, no need to go further than 600 I think. Start at 300, shoot 2 sighter and 10, then go back to 400, 500, and finally 600. This will build confidence. I experienced this at a military shoot in Batoche range. Shooting a couple of v-bull at 600 yards with a 1943 Lee Enfield using the issued iron sight is pretty fun.

Have a good explanation as to how the marking works. I remember my first time at the PQRA range. I was shooting a Lee Enfield with a 3-9 scope. I shot, target goes down, goes up, I did shoot a 4. However, no one had explained to me that there was 2 marker, one in the hole and one for the score. I was not able to see the marker for the hole, so I aimed at the one for score. Needless to say, it took a couple of rounds for my coach to figure out I was not able to see the markers in the black target.

Also, make new shooter understand that they can start with what they have, and improve from there. I was shooting an Axis with a VLP varmint barrel in 223, shooting 80 grains Berger VLD. I shot 4 matches this season, got some problem, learned a lot, and for next season I got myself a Shilen and I will shoot 90 VLD. Since our range is 600 yards, a 223 is more than enough. Am I competitive against 200+ grains in 308 ? Not really, but I don't really care at this point.

I see this sport like golf, I want to beat MYSELF everytime I go on the line. Once I beat myself every time, then I'll see about beating others....
 
WG300 - YIKES, that's a spicy response. A whole lot out of context but you are welcome to any opinion you want.

I would however, not want to suggest to anyone that bolt lift and primer appearance is enough to determine operating pressures.

Given that this thread is trying to show how inviting and accommodating we all are, best I just leave things as is.

Have a great off season and hopefully, see you on the line in a future match.

You did a great job in Raton and I am sure your skills will continue to grow towards the next worlds.

Enjoy...

Jerry
 
For me, how to attract more shooters is a moot point when there is no attempt to advertise or actually draw new shooters. Also I feel that we can answer the question of why aren't we getting more young new shooters by simply looking at the age dynamics of who generally shoots now(over 40 crowd) and who you are trying to draw in(under 40 crowd). Lots of young folks out there with money to burn so its not that. Lets face the reality that until you get to the point where you LOVE reading wind and the technical challenges that go along with that, to an under 40 that just wants to shoot cool stuff,shooting prone at circles all day is bloody boring. How can you compete with precision rifle/tactical/sniper matches? Snap shoots, rapids, target detection, positional shooting, movers etc? You can't. The young these days are brought up being handed everything. You really think they want to work to get better? No they want the instant gratification. They want to be competitive now. Could be why things like CQB matches are so popular. Targets are close,its hard to completely miss, wind isn't a factor and they can finish within a few points of the winners without even really trying and feel cool while doing it.
How do we get around this? I'm not sure. Advertise the matches in a friendly no pressure kinda way would be a good start. Then perhaps take a hard look at recruiting folks on that age edge between go go go and slowing down and too sore to shoot kneeling anymore lol.
Just my two cents for what its worth.
 
I don't agree with the idea that young guys don't want to go out and shoot circles all day. Whenever I go to any local range, that's all that I see the young guys doing: shooting their rifles off the bench at circles all day. Doesn't matter if its a boltgun, an AR or an SKS. Rarely see them shoot standing at anything beyond 25 yards. Only other people practicing kneeling are the Olympic smallbore shooters.
 
Advertising is definitely important, not sure how we'd get the word out there without having to advertize at other clubs who aren't doing the long range stuff. Although even on some websites dedicated to the long range stuff it can be hard to figure out what's what and some simplification could certainly help in many areas.
Now as I've noticed before, a fair bit of people who do the other types of shooting often seem to attach a "snob" stigma to anyone in the precision shooting and higher end equipment. Which of course is really not the case as just about everyone in this sport is fantastic and helpful, but somehow the belief that many won't "fit in" definitely keeps some away from ever trying it, and some guys who do have the equipment but just shoot on their own. (then again not everybody likes to compete).

If there's some events set up to draw more people in with factory rifles to try long range, it would probably be good that at such events there also be a few guys willing to let the new shooters try a few rounds out of what a "real rifle" can do. Many guys probably have an older rifle they no longer use to compete but that still out shoots anything factory. It might help keep a few of the guys showing up with a rifle that doesn't perform well from giving up right away. Some guidance about how they can step it up at a reasonable cost and be competitive doesn't hurt either.

I've also noticed a fair bit of guys into the long range competition stuff generally are from a more technical back ground and it ties with this type of shooting/thinking and analysis of factors involved, so this might be an aspect in who really ends up sticking to it. I'm one of the new guys, turning 30 in a few months, I wanted to get into it for a few years but had much bigger priorities, still do but I'll try to take it more seriously next year and planning the next rifle.
 
The hope is that by increasing the NUMBER of new shooters, young or old, there will be a natural progression to try new things or to experience new challenges.

If you look at the shooting sport with those that are "into" it, precision shooting in all its disciplines make up a very small percentage of the total population. See what a Cowboy action shoot or Sporting clays or 3gun Sniper match in the US attract.

The F class US Nationals last year had around 200shooters. A 3 gun match recently had something like 1200 participants.

So no matter what, we just aren't going to have zillions of shooters taking up the sport. BUT a steady stream would be positive for those who aspire to both the technical and physical demands of the sport.

Jerry
 
maynard said:
We aready have that here in Ontario. It is called F(M) class (M) meaning manufactured class. The problem is that so few shoot in this class it ends up getting lumped in the F/TR class.
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The less competitive matches here in Kamloops always have a "sporter" class witch is any 100% factory rifle in .223 or .308. Specialty target factory rifles like the target Savages are excluded. I won a few years ago with a straight factory Savage 12 varmint with $200 glass on and never had more fun.

I love the idea that I can compete with something I picked up from wholesale sports. Fun for very little money. :)
 
Some of us don't live anywhere near the 900/1000 meter ranges and it's quite a jaunt to attend a rifle match. This is why as an Albertan, I'm a member of the Saskatchewan Handgun Associaton, and all of my closest matches are east of the border up here in much closer proximity.

To shoot 50 meter Free Pistol in Alberta, I would have to drive at least to Calgary. (7.5 hour drive from here)
(because for some lame reason this does not happen in Edmonton!?!?!)
 
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With Social Media, the ability to broadcast anything is simple. Problem, many don't know how or have the incentive to do so.

If clubs and stores combined to offer info to the entire shooting base, the words gets out pretty easily.

Jerry
 
WG300 said:
As I shoot a 34in barrel, sending a 200gr at 2770, I though also you were talking about me. Its strange that a friend of mine, who shoot a 30in, 200gr at 2650 is not in the discussion. Seems like he’s not “dangerous”. Put that same THROAT AND LOAD in a 34in barrel and it goes out at 2750…then WOW, he’s dangerous now !

I also been to Raton, even if I talked to tons of people, never heard about changing the rules. Maybe got something to do with the fact I’m not promoting it !

I remember that when you tried my rifle, one round was enough to “PRESERVE” your shoulder.…Don’t HIDE BEHIND SAFETY to avoid weekness and promote true intentions.

You are making a awesome technical statement, prooving that you READ a lot. That do not bring any jugement though. To verify safety, you only need the following: bolt lift and primers. No need to bring the NASA to the line. It was also mention that you step up in “technology” and will be up to the task for now on, first, there is no need for technology to push a bullet fast, just throat it long, buy a long pipe and put powder, it will go fast AND SAFE. Sell your solution, cant even make your own gun shoot….damn !

How can a guy that make that much of a statement, took that long to figure out a 223 was not in the game, how come that someone with so much knowledge brought a rifle that shoot like an absolute piece of #### in Raton.

FTR will self limit in a year or 2…..?

Chat with a guy that push a 230 at 2700…so what. What length of pipe, specify the powder, if single base, its fast, if double, its not.

Lab testing….material resistance…..nice statement but…blablabla….watch your bolt and primer, that’s it.

Need to define what is safe…dam what are you saying !

You definitely proove being a nice person, but for god sake your on the wrong page !

Jonathan L.
Click to expand...

"took that long to figure out a 223 was not in the game",
easy now the mouse guns will get there hair-up and you never know could come back and bite the .308s
For me the 223 pretty much runs with .308win and often wins matches the 308 from 300 to 700 seen fellows shooting high score 300 m 75 with 15 v bulls, 600 75 with 13 v bulls, 900 meter 75 with 12 v bulls not shabby.
Easterns 700 m 223 won by a hair.considering there are 10 .308 to 1 223 at most shoots
some dud reading wind well might give those heavy 30 cal all they can handle. If I recall at Connaught last years May shoot the winning .308 had a total of 55 vbulls and the 223 has 55 v bulls. few more points 223 could have won
manitou
 
SND said:
Advertising is definitely important, not sure how we'd get the word out there without having to advertize at other clubs who aren't doing the long range stuff.
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RangeBurlington is only a 50m, we don't do any "long range stuff" and yet we host the ORA Winter Training Series each year and heavily promote the ORA as part of the weekly rifle league. Its not an advertising thing, its a networking and "evangelizing" issue. Make the club-level contacts, get the ambassadors into the local clubs and the cross-pollination will begin almost by itself.
 
Ranges that can be used for 22 rifle are the real beginning of getting people interested in shooting. Then you need a dealer who will stock/sell reasonable priced 22 target style rifles. The Gun Club should contact a dealer for a club buy on .22 ammo. That's what we did in the late 60's and it worked. I know, guns were less than $100.00 and 5000 cases of 22 were less than $75.00, but everyone gets to shoot.
We got a good deal on used English Gun Club Mossberg target 22 rifles, which were in exc condition at the time. Still have mine. We also got a good deal on 22 ammo, Browning Challenger and Medalist 22 pistols from the local Co-Op store, which was very supportive of the Gun Club. They also sold shotguns and center fire rifles at good prices to the membership.
 
I guess Longshot and myself have a different view of things because we run ranges for young soldiers, train them, and listen to them.
We ask what they like, what interests them, and what they don't like. When you can get them to put their phone down they will tell you that they like positional shooting, fire with movement, high round counts, movers, snaps, and rapids. Figure out who your target is, and give them what they want. 18-25 year olds are looking for wack-a-mole more than trying to thread a needle from 900m and hand loading in their (moms) basement. Get them hooked and they will stay in the shooting sports.

A career in recreational rifle shooting should be the goal. Get a shooter on the line and shooting inside 100m with CQB, then get him shooting back to 500 and dealing with wind in Service Rifle, then 900 with TAC/Precision, then when the shooter has matured and is ready to focus on threading the needle they will move to F-Class. Focus on the young adults today and they will provide everyone with competitors in the future.
 
Does anyone have a % of "RIFLE TEAM CADETS" that keep on shooting after they leave the Forces?
They are trained, rifles and ammo supplied, etc. but once the goodies disappear, how many will shell out the bucks to pursue the sport on their own?
 
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