How to get more people involved in Competitive Shooting

[maynard]

Please don't take the numbers that Daniel posted as representative of what it costs to shoot F-Class Nationals; in fact they are one of the reasons that there is an F-Class Nationals. While we have not yet nailed down what the entry fees will be for Worlds I can't imagine they will be anywhere near that high. Entry fees for the larger F-Class events in Canada (Easterns, Westerns, and Nationals) have typically run 1/3 to 1/2 of the figures quoted, for shoots that run from 2-4 days.

Scott

I would hope that the F Class Worlds would be more than 4 days. You have to give them enough shooting to make the trip from Aus, NZ, SA, EU and the UK worth while. If the F Class Worlds were tacked on at the end of the CFRC it would allow overseas teams to come early and either shoot the whole CFRC or at least shoot a couple of CFRC matches as a warm ups (if their barrels will last that many rounds)

Like Jerry and Dan have already said, the cost of every leisure activity is expensive. Take your family to a MLB or NHL game and see what it cost. However, if we would like to promote competitive long range shooting be it either TR or F Class or both, we need to look at ways to reduce or keep the costs down. If this means competitor marking (even if we just do this at 300m), shooting 3 to a target, or having competitors act as ARO (maybe once or twice during the entire match) then we need to look into doing this. These are things that we have control over.

 

[rnbra-shooter]

I would hope that the F Class Worlds would be more than 4 days. You have to give them enough shooting to make the trip from Aus, NZ, SA, EU and the UK worth while. If the F Class Worlds were tacked on at the end of the CFRC it would allow overseas teams to come early and either shoot the whole CFRC or at least shoot a couple of CFRC matches as a warm ups (if their barrels will last that many rounds)

Every four years the F-Class World Championship is fired. This year it was fired in Raton, NM, USA (and Canada's F-Class team did fantastic - if I may boast a little, please see http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/susa_201310/#/36 for a photo of our silver medal winning F-TR team).

Canada will be hosting the next F-Class World Championships, in August 2017 in Ottawa. Immediately preceding it we'll hold our Canadian F-Class National Championships match, which many will use as to warmup, get familiar with the range and its conditions, and a worthwhile match in itself. So we'll have:

- Canadian F-Class National Championship. Individual shooting plus some team matches. 3 days.
- F-Class World Championships, Individual shooting (3 days?)
- F-Class World Championships, Team Matches (2 days)

Immediately following this will be the Canadian Fullbore Rifle Championships (9 days), which is mainly an iron sights event though F-Class shooters are more than welcome to enter. I would expect though that most F-Class shooters will have had their fill of shooting by the time they're done with the FCWC.

 

[TrxR]

What was the entry fees this year at the worlds?

 

[kombayotch]

If I may throw more fuel on this debate, personally, it is expensive but a whole lot cheaper then a lot of pass times out there.

The key is not to compare the Canadian Nationals to a rd at the local chip and putt but to a major tournament of whatever vocation they want that uses equipment.

think golf, car and boat and bike and motor bike racing, Triathlons (you will be blown away at what it costs for this ONE DAY EVENT in Penticton).

How about 11 days on a Ski hill? or a warm weather resort? Stuff is expensive regardless.

I think the more important question is how do we motivate the many many shooters to get into competitive shooting? They are already spending buckets of money on a whole range of gear, much of it wouldn't be half bad at f class.

So how do we get them to the event at a club level? Because once they are involved, the costs aren't that big a deal anymore.

Think our rifles are expensive? Ever buy a Quad? Or heaven forbid, a new snow mobile?

The gear we use it the top of our sport and it is still affordable and accessible to most every middle class person IF they choose to participate.

Yes, our events can be considered expensive but have you ever tried to play a round of golf at a PGA tournament certified course?

We are in a golden age of wealthy and active people who are post kids, time on their hands, and activity on their minds. All have come through a time when firearms weren't scary machines from hell. There is no shortage of hunters and they can spend some serious coin too.

If we want the costs to go down, we need to increase the level of attendance which allows for business interests to participate as well. It is a positive loop and ensures we all get to enjoy a sport we love.

The key is helping others, especially shooters, to love what we do.

Jerry

When I read stuff like this, I have to ask if the goal is to do what is best for the sport or if it is to do what is best for the older, wealthier people who currently shoot it? The future of any sport lies with young people (who are generally not well off financially), not with retirees (who are often financially secure).

If you want the young people to come out, it isn't that they don't have equipment, its that time-and-time again they're told that their equipment isn't good enough. That they shouldn't bother showing up with it. It's ridiculous to talk about the cost of equipment being a barrier and to compare it to ATVs or golf when there are people out there who already have equipment that would work perfectly fine for them, that are being discouraged from attending. No, pro golfers don't use Sears level equipment, and no they wouldn't be competitive with it if they did, but no one is telling the beginner golfers not to bother golfing because their half-set of Sears clubs won't allow them to win the PGA tour.

If you want a shooting sport to grow, the hardest thing is getting people out on the line. If its affordable, accessible and the experience is fun and enjoyable, the rest will take care of itself. New people will continue shooting it, they'll improve their skills, and they'll upgrade their equipment at whatever rate they can afford to. But, that will never happen if they don't show up in the first place. It's one thing to have a class for beginner level equipment, its another thing to promote it, encourage people to come out and shoot in it, and to make them feel welcome when they do. They aren't going to feel that way if that class is treated like the red-headed step child of the sport, if when they go out and shoot in it, they feel like the experienced shooter are begrudgingly allowing them to shoot it along side them.

 

[Mystic Precision]

The money debate will never change and never end. Those who want to play will find the resources. Don't know about your area but around here, we see serious coin being dumped into jacked up full sized pick up trucks towing fancy ski boats.... with 2 kid seats in the back. All sorts of other "toys" aplenty.

Look at what new skis and outfits are going to cost... YIKES.

Hockey anyone?????

The point is that our sport is NOT expensive when you consider the level of performance you can reach. Is it something that a person on a lower income can afford? No, they never could and unfortunately, they never will.

ANY of these types of past times has to target those with disposable income and for those that have disposable income AND shoot, we need to entice them into the fold.

We need to show that we are more fun then just blasting crates of steel jacketed blamo, or wannabe GI Joe kit or puffing round orange thingys. You are right that shooters must always feel welcome. It has to be a fun place to be whether you are competing or not.

It has to be a fun place for their spouses and families.

Thousands of people swing away chasing that silly ball around a big hunk of lawn. Precious few have any interest in competing but it is a great fun way to socialise and get out of the daily blah. When you are dropping $150 per day for green fees, you aren't doing things for cheap.

Almost no one plays ALONE

Phone up a few courses in your area and see what it costs to play. My folks are silly crazy golfers and paid a small fortune for the right to get a member ship card. THEN paid more per year for the privilege to whack that silly ball then I consume all year shooting.

Many don't like our sport cause for the most part, ranges are rustic and it is considered a hill billy/ red neckish kind of thing. The fact that we have a bunch of upper middle class professionals doing this notwithstanding.

I was blown away the first time I went up to find the Kamloops rifle range. Got lost and ended up on a sporting clays range. I knew I was not in the right place despite the sound of gunfire...

Why? Never seen so many BMW's, Audis and Mercs on a gravel road in my life. Didn't see a single 4x4. You tell me how much it costs to play in Sporting Clays.... And their WIVES shoot too.

Sorry, if this seems critical but its all about the image we present. we ARE a damn fine sport. We are capable of producing the best at what we do and the best is the best in the WORLD.

You show anyone that they can win an "Olympic" medal without mortgaging their soul and their families resources and they will think you insane. We can, We did and I have the medal to show it.

Show them that between now and Aug 2017, they can learn, train and be COMPETITIVE and compete in our Olympics.

I have a huge interest in developing juniors and younger shooters. Sorry, but we just don't have a bunch of "internet" millionaire kids in the wings. BUT we do have families that can support a sport for their kids.

Not cheap but you don't wake up at 5 in the morning during the week either.... Show me how Hockey is cheaper then F class for a family.

Growing our sport is making it first and foremost something shooters know exist. Yes, F class is still a mystery to many shooters, even those on this board. Make the ranges and sport as accessible as going to the local driving range. TELL shooters what you are up to. Make gear accessible to try. Chat it up, bring someone out.

You want someone to start in the sport. Get them driving 5's and V's first time out and you got some fun. Let them flounder with their factory whatevers and they will not be back. Nothing sells like success.

Rebarreled Savage, Choate Stock, MPOD, Rifle Basix Trigger, Sightron inside some Burris rings, Farrell base. Chamber in a 223 with 80.5 gr bullets and send them to the 600yds line.

Squad them up into teams. Wind coach them so they hit that black circle more often then not. Teach them, Show them. They just need to buy into the experience. The money will come.

If there was ever a better reason for team shooting, I have never heard it. Not just an open day to shoot, a coached day to shoot!!!!!

You want more wives in our sport - develop TEAM shooting. Make it a priority. Remember that SOCIAL side of the sport?

How many stay away cause they feel they will never understand all the techy stuff we debate on this forum? How many stay away cause they have no idea that you CAN shoot on the cheap?

How many think it has to be big boomers to play? How many have a variety of misconceptions about our sport which drives them to other disciplines?

Sounds very pie in the sky for sure but if people are not comfortable about where they are, they will not want to participate.

We are the sports best ambassadors and harshest critics.

YMMV.

Jerry

 

[jrsniper]

I love the sport of F class, but a year ago I did not know a thing about it. I found a CNG member Bob Pastor who said buy a gun and took me under his wing to get me started and get the right things I needed. The sport is for the young to grow, but the older need to guide the younger shooter. I am in my early 30 and went from near wins last year at my first ORA provincial match, to three wins this year. Bob, and Leo both helped on the line with come ups or errors they saw being made. I save my money and limited vacation to shoot in a sport I love, but feeling welcome is the starting point. With the right people helping me buy what I really needed and not wasting my money on things I didn't need I was able to win three Golds this year. What F-Class needs is Mentors, lucky for me I had many, Bob Pastor, Norm Barber, Leo D'Amour the sport can only grow from good ambassadors! Dealers like Jerry @ Mystic bulk Berger bullet sales and Peter at Hirsch Lapua brass have also been of help whom I buy products from both. Yes I also have a 2.5 r old and he is already on the range with dad!! My new dream is to see if I can make the team for 2017 to show my son anyone to make it if you work hard for you dream.

Thanks to all my Mentors & dealers, now its up to me to make my dream come true.

 

[Mystic Precision]

jrsniper, AWESOME and congrats.

Hope to see you at Connaught in the coming years.

Jerry

 

[kombayotch]

Growing our sport is making it first and foremost something shooters know exist. Yes, F class is still a mystery to many shooters, even those on this board.

Even if they've heard about F-class, it seems to be assumed that they will automatically know that its shot alongside TR. They don't, they have no idea that it was derived from TR. In addition, titles for matches and practices often don't specify what disciplines are being shot in them. If a newbie is looking for information on "F-class", they're going to look for events that have "F-class" in the title. Maybe you do that over there, but locally, the titles are pretty obscure. Simply laying out the information in a straight forward way would serve them a lot better. For example, a simple page that showed:

Matches where F-Class is shot:
<list of matches dates and locations>

F-Class Specific Practices:
<list of practices dates and locations>

Multidisciplinary Practices where F-Class can be shot:
<list of practices dates and locations>


It could be posted as a sticky at the top of the forum like other disciplines have done.

You want someone to start in the sport. Get them driving 5's and V's first time out and you got some fun. Let them flounder with their factory whatevers and they will not be back. Nothing sells like success.

I think you are right on the money with that. If they come out with the factory gun, they aren't shown the same level of interest/acceptance (in many cases the opposite) and left to flounder, and then they don't come back.

Last year NSCC introduced the "Designated Markman" class in PR to allow the CF guys to participate in the event with their C7s. That class only shoots for score out to 600m, but they can continue for honors out to 800m. I'd say that's a lot worse of a situation than shooting a factory Remington or Savage boltgun at 900m. Yet, we had to peel many of those C7 shooters off of the 800m line both years. Even though they were in most cases only shooting minute of Fig. 11, they loved it. This year, a bunch of guys who shot DM last year with a C7 showed up with factory boltguns. Some of them plan on upgrading to custom barrels for next year. Some of the guys who tried it for the first time this year with C7s, plan on buying factory boltguns for next year. Nothing sells like trying something out with what you already have before you go out and drop a pile of cash on new equipment for it. All the better if you can do it with others shooting the same type of equipment so that you're not made to feel like the odd man out.

 

[Terry Perkins]

Even if they've heard about F-class, it seems to be assumed that they will automatically know that its shot alongside TR. They don't, they have no idea that it was derived from TR. In addition, titles for matches and practices often don't specify what disciplines are being shot in them. If a newbie is looking for information on "F-class", they're going to look for events that have "F-class" in the title. Maybe you do that over there, but locally, the titles are pretty obscure. Simply laying out the information in a straight forward way would serve them a lot better.

Well, many thanks to Bob Raymond (formerly it was Ric Melling) for the Ontario Rifle Association Intro days for the unknowing. Anybody that REALLY wants to shoot competitively will make a concerted effort to learn everything about the discipline they're interested in. That means internet searches, emails, etc. If trying to attract the mildly interested, it's a long haul. But, I have found that the Intro days have piqued the interest of several participants, and that is very good. This is a programme that is benefitting the ORA and target shooting. BTW, word of mouth at local clubs works, too. So, keep advertising verbally, eh.

 

[Inspector]

I have to agree with Terry, the New Shooter Clinics at AFRA of recent years have done far more to increase match attendance than any amount of idle chit chat and online banter. Thanks to people who made this happen. I'd wager to say there's 20 new combatants from only a year or so ago. We now are at max capacity every match........Priceless. With HR putting in 2 more tagrets, only good things will happen.
Cheers

 

[skeetgunner]

Well, many thanks to Bob Raymond (formerly it was Ric Melling) for the Ontario Rifle Association Intro days for the unknowing. Anybody that REALLY wants to shoot competitively will make a concerted effort to learn everything about the discipline they're interested in.

Tardy response and an out of date web site is too much of a disincentiv for many new shooters. In addition to intro-days, Bob's work with the new ORA website has also been stellar in that regard.

A good, clean, easy to read, well laid out PRA web site makes a good anchor point for people to find. A bit of judicious SEO/SEM work may help too, so that search engines will find it and list it on the top page. Discipline-specific info with pics is a huge help, plus contacts and equipment lists and maybe even vendor links.

Prompt response to a frequently monitored email address (ie: info@YourPRAnameHere.ca) is also key for capturing and informing new shooters. They may not join right away, but you can drop them onto a mailing list and keep them in the loop with quarterly or yearly updates.

BTW, Bob's just about to announce the 2014 Winter ORA series at Range Burlington. Stay tuned. He's assembling his...minion.

 

[ONT0001]

When I read stuff like this, I have to ask if the goal is to do what is best for the sport or if it is to do what is best for the older, wealthier people who currently shoot it? The future of any sport lies with young people (who are generally not well off financially), not with retirees (who are often financially secure).

If you want the young people to come out, it isn't that they don't have equipment, its that time-and-time again they're told that their equipment isn't good enough. That they shouldn't bother showing up with it. It's ridiculous to talk about the cost of equipment being a barrier and to compare it to ATVs or golf when there are people out there who already have equipment that would work perfectly fine for them, that are being discouraged from attending. No, pro golfers don't use Sears level equipment, and no they wouldn't be competitive with it if they did, but no one is telling the beginner golfers not to bother golfing because their half-set of Sears clubs won't allow them to win the PGA tour.

If you want a shooting sport to grow, the hardest thing is getting people out on the line. If its affordable, accessible and the experience is fun and enjoyable, the rest will take care of itself. New people will continue shooting it, they'll improve their skills, and they'll upgrade their equipment at whatever rate they can afford to. But, that will never happen if they don't show up in the first place. It's one thing to have a class for beginner level equipment, its another thing to promote it, encourage people to come out and shoot in it, and to make them feel welcome when they do. They aren't going to feel that way if that class is treated like the red-headed step child of the sport, if when they go out and shoot in it, they feel like the experienced shooter are begrudgingly allowing them to shoot it along side them.

Hey Kris,
Agreed that "new shooters" will be the lifeblood of the continuing growth in our F'ing sport.

I am surprised at your comment " or if it is to do what is best for the older, wealthier people who currently shoot it?" and"not with retirees (who are often financially secure). "
As you know pretty much ALL of us make sacrifices (very few I know are wealthy) to meet the costs related to shooting and that it IS NOT and inexpensive sport.

I personally cannot recall anyone that was shunned,turned away,or discouraged because of "equipment not good enough." On the contrary,newer shooters are encouraged to bring
what they have and encouraged to "learn the game". However if someone has equipment that would prevent them from even reaching the the target ,certainly they would be advised that there are minimum needs in basic equipment . The ORA Club even provides club rifles and ammo for those that required it!
I would "encourage " a new shooter to attend as many practices and club matches as possible to gain experience and learn from some of the more experienced shooters.
What I have never seen is anyone being "treated like the red-headed step child of the sport, if when they go out and shoot in it, they feel like the experienced shooter are begrudgingly allowing them to shoot it along side them."

I don't know where these comments are coming from.Having been an active shooter for awhile now,I encourage and actively recruit shooters to come out and try our game.
When the equipment that they have brought isn't up to the job,we've let them shoot our gear for the experience.We strive to make everyone feel welcomed.
You make it sound as if "WE" F'ers are a bunch of elitist snobs and shun newcomers......when in actuality it's quite the opposite.

The reality of our "sport" however cannot be misrepresented. It is NOT a cheap endeavor and serious development requires certain commitments that cannot be overlooked.
Time,dedication,sacrifice are part of game ,if one wishes to reach "competitive" status,as in all sports. To compete at National and International levels takes even more.
Not everyone has that goal in mind and some would just like to shoot and improve their own skills. These people are welcomed just as well...
Perhaps you'll take me up on my offer to join us out on our next F'ing practice or match .......
Kindest Regards
Gord O

 

[kombayotch]

Gord,

I know that you are a promoter of new shooters, but sadly that some of your fellow shooters do not seem to share the same sentiment towards them. There is a nice thread about short barrels in the precision forum you can read, where some of the "experienced shooters" go into some nice detail about their feelings towards new shooters and their proper "place". The hostility towards them is pretty clear to anyone reading the thread. One of the moderators mentions one of the incidents. It gives a pretty good example of the type of reception I keep hearing about from guys who have went out with factory equipment. I can introduce you to a shooter who bought equipment (stuff he could afford) and went to some the practices/matches, then ended up selling it all after what he experienced. I somehow doubt that I would experience the same thing a new guy with a factory experiences going there alone experiences, if I took my custom rifle and went there with you.

When you try and bring this up in a nice polite way, it usually goes the same way: A dismissal (lots of that in this thread), a focus on the fact that that equipment is no not good enough to win and what is needed to win, and the impression that with a factory gun you have no chance of even hitting the target board, let alone the bull. Well, few people go out to something for the first time with the intend of winning right off the bat, and few people are going to commit to buying expensive equipment for something they've never tried. The guys I know who went out with the factory guns, went out with the intent of learning how to shoot long range. They didn't expect to shoot all Vs, or even all 5s or even all 4s. They just wanted to TRY long range shooting. And if they liked it, they would continue. They would learn, their skills would improve and they would upgrade their equipment as they could. A pretty reasonable expectation, I think? Sounds like a logical path for a new shooter. Why they experienced what they did, I cannot even fathom.

Kris

 

[kombayotch]

Btw, our mutual friend down south, the one who shot the US nations and world (and did better than many of the people knocking starting out with a factory rifle in this threat), that's exactly the path he took to get where he is. He started with a couple of factory Savages. When he shot the barrels out of those, he got custom tubes put on them. Then eventually upgraded to complete custom guns. But,that was after years of shooting those Savages. They took him a loooong way. I practiced beside him many times on that 1k range we belonged to. And while they certainly weren't as good as custom guns, they were decent shooters, more than adequate learning tool for a beginner. If someone had told him that those rifles wouldn't have been adequate in the beginning, he likely wouldn't have ever gotten into the sport.

There are a LOT of guys with similar rifles out there. Guys, who would likely follow the same path he did if they had the same positive experience he did.

 

[ONT0001]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting factory rifles for long range...(some factory offerings are just better than others)
I haven't found the posting yet you mentioned,but would have to say some people may be less adept at explanations than others.
If what a person owns is capable of MOA consistently and has a ballistic efficiency capable of the 1000 yard mark,i'd say it's fine enough
to start with.
Anyone questioning the factory rifles place "on the line" need only reference Team Savage results in the US.
I personally would take exception to anyone who belittles or disrespects a new to the game shooter.We all had to go through the curve
somewhere along the line and I still thank the individuals who took the time to share their experience,knowledge and advice over
the years.
However ,the opinions expressed by the few that may have occurred, do not reflect on the "community" at large.To say so would be an injustice to the majority.

I do suggest strongly that those who read on here and are interested, get ahold of their PRA's rep to sign up for intro class.As stated before ,and I recommend strongly for those in Ontario,
to get ahold of Bob Raymond who goes above and beyond in providing a knowledgeable introduction to LR shooting course over the winter.

There are benefits of seeking advice from those that know and whose pedigree is proven.

 

[maynard]

kombayotch,
A few years ago during the ORA Annual Matches (TR and F Class) we had a few shooters out shooting service rifle. I think there was only 4 of them at that time. They shot the same course of fire on the same DCRA (round) targets as everyone else but only shot the 300, 500 and 600 yards stages. They had their own class, so they were not lumped in with the TR of F Class Aggs. I am just wondering why this only happened one year and why more Service Rifle shooters didn't attend. This match would also be a great match for PR shooters even though they would be shooting at round target instead of Fig 11's and Fig 12's and no movers. Since there is already F(O) and F(TR) classes, if there was enough interest a F(PR) class could be added.

I know there is some cross-over F Class and PR shooters, but for the most part PR shooters stay away from the ORA Annual Matches. My though is that F(PR) and F(M)anufactured rifle could be class together.

 

[kombayotch]

That doesn't really surprise me. Many PR shooters ended up as PR shooters because they were told (or given the impression) in the beginning that their equipment wouldn't work in F Class. Many of those shooters have since upgraded to custom rifles that would work well in FTR if they were in 308 and didn't have breaks. But, the perception is probably still there. People are much more willing to spend money on equipment upgrades once they have gotten into something than they are in the beginning when they're just interested in trying it.

I'm not really clear how F(PR) would be a different class, unless you are proposing to allow breaks and calibers other than 308 and 223. Anything to get more shooters out on the line is a good thing, even if its just getting shooters from one discipline shooting another one. But, simply adding new classes won't get more people out. If new shooters are truly wanted, the organization that wants them needs to work to get them. Not advertizing something, expecting prospective new shooters to do research in order to find the information, those are pretty surefire ways to ensure a low turn out.

 

[maynard]

My understanding of PR is that it is shot off a bipod (I could be wrong, never been to a PR match) The breaks would have to be taken off as per DCRA/ICFRA/ORA, TR/F-Class rules. If a group of PR shooters believe that their PR rigs will not be competitive with F/TR or F/O rigs at ranges from 300 to 1000 yards, make your own class and compete against each other during the Annual Matches. Like I said the SR guys did it one year, but never came back. They knew their rifles would not be competitive at the long range so they opted to just shoot 300,500 and 600. This is a 3 day event so there is plenty of shooting if they want to do it.

All the information about all the matches are on the ORA website. I don't think we had to hold their hand and click the mouse for them to find it. If they have questions about the matches all they have to do is drop an email to the organizer right from the webpage.

This coming Saturday, Oct 12, is the ORA Fall Palma. Unlimited sighters and 15 shots on score at 800 yards. Then 2 sights and 15 for score at 900 and again at 1000. This would be a great chance for the PR shooters to come out and shoot beyond the normal 800 yards that is normally shot during PR matches. Why not put the word out within the PR group and get some shooters out to this match?

 

[Gunnerlove]

As a Service Rifle/ Tac Rifle shooter the thought of taking 45 minutes to shoot a deliberate match sounds horrible.
Then again a day of deliberates is kind of like confirming zeros, all day.

 

[kombayotch]

My understanding of PR is that it is shot off a bipod (I could be wrong, never been to a PR match) The breaks would have to be taken off as per DCRA/ICFRA/ORA, TR/F-Class rules. If a group of PR shooters believe that their PR rigs will not be competitive with F/TR or F/O rigs at ranges from 300 to 1000 yards, make your own class and compete against each other during the Annual Matches. Like I said the SR guys did it one year, but never came back. They knew their rifles would not be competitive at the long range so they opted to just shoot 300,500 and 600. This is a 3 day event so there is plenty of shooting if they want to do it.

Yes, bipod and rear bag. If you are making up a class for them, why would they need to take off their brakes? Is there not some way they could be squadded or positioned so that they were only disturbing each other? Many people have breaks that are permanently attached or timed. They are not easily removed.

All the information about all the matches are on the ORA website. I don't think we had to hold their hand and click the mouse for them to find it. If they have questions about the matches all they have to do is drop an email to the organizer right from the webpage.

You expect them to somehow just magically know about the match and go there to look for the information? If people don't know the match exist, or that there is a certain class they can shoot in, they aren't going to go and look there for the information. They aren't going to e-mail someone about something they're oblivious to. If you want them to come out, you have to make them aware. A really good way to do that is to put all of the information they need in order to attend the match a high traffic location (a post in the forum maybe?). I see a lot of posts about ORA F-Class results in this forum, but I don't see many advertizing upcoming matches...

This coming Saturday, Oct 12, is the ORA Fall Palma. Unlimited sighters and 15 shots on score at 800 yards. Then 2 sights and 15 for score at 900 and again at 1000. This would be a great chance for the PR shooters to come out and shoot beyond the normal 800 yards that is normally shot during PR matches. Why not put the word out within the PR group and get some shooters out to this match?

I'm not the PR match director, therefore I don't have a distribution list for PR shooters. Since the last PR match has already occurred, I'm not going to see the majority of those people till next year. That leaves only a few options: 1) post a thread on here with the information in it. 2) contact the PR match director and ask him to send out an e-mail on his distribution list to all of the PR shooters 3) send out an e-mail on the ORA distribution list an let all members know about it.

Kind of short notice... a lot of people probably already have plans (I do), but it might be worth a try. Which method would you like me to use to promote your match for you?