Ffp
- Thread starter shredon
- Start date
This must only be true for one set magnification value.
Jerry, I am well acquainted with how both degrees and radians describe a circle and the relationship between the two. Obviously, I didn't do a very good job making my point because
it seems to have been missed. But my main point is that MRAD and metric work well together because they are both 10 base systems. When you use imperial measurements with
MRAD, you are working with a base 3, base 12, base 36 and base 10 system. And they don't mix well. To demonstrate this let's revisit my earlier example.
Remember that using 2.8m and 8 MRAD we arrived at 350mm, 350m and 35mm from one calculation.
Now let's say this same moose is estimated at 9 feet long, measured nose to rump and measures 8 MRAD in the scope. So 9 divide by 8 equals 1.125 feet per MRAD.
(2.8m is actually about 9.2 feet, but for simplicity we'll use 9 ft)
- How far away is the moose in yards?
Its MRAD, so we automatically know the moose is 1125 feet away, but to get the yardage you have to do another calculation: 1125 divide by 3 equals 375 yards.
- For hold over purposes, what does the distance between two sub-tension marks represent?
Since imperial drop is always in inches, we'd have another calculation to do: 1.125 times 12 equals 13.5 inches
Luckily, we've already done the calculation to know that the value of each click of the 0.1 MRAD turret is 1.35 inches
So to get the same information that required one calculation using MRAD & Metric, required three calculations using MRAD & Imperial.
I hope this demonstrates my point and explains my opposition to using Imperial measurements with the MRAD system.
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"In my opinion, and as Mystic mentioned, MRAD with metric and MOA with Imperial should
both serve you very well, and be equally easy to use."
Is that not what I said that he said? Now we both said it, I dont think there's any reason to say it again.
I say again......dont say it again. That beeing said, this is all very educating.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
358BLR, Understood...
Use either system as you see fit. Neither is simple. Neither is math free. Either requires some rounding off which can be critical on small targets at LR.
As a matter of last resort, it will put lead on target which was the whole point.
Note for a blast from the past, many brands made rangefinding scopes back in the 70's and 80's using the benefit of SFP. With a bracketing line, circle or mark, the magnification was adjusted until the "standard" size target was bracketed. Read the distance off the scope mag ring and away you go
Of course, there was plenty of room for error and the concept didn't last long BUT it can easily be replicated today with ANY SFP scope. Good, bad or whatever..... I much prefer the rangefinder and consider it a must use when distance stretch out.
A few brands still use a similar system but with rangefinders being prolific, not a big deal anymore.
If all of this scope use is only to engage targets within 400yds, seems like a whole lot of extra work for nothing. Know your cartridge and do some real world shooting.
Many modern cartridges fly flat enough in the first 400yds, that with minimal adjustment can engage large game easily.
YMMV
Jerry
Use either system as you see fit. Neither is simple. Neither is math free. Either requires some rounding off which can be critical on small targets at LR.
As a matter of last resort, it will put lead on target which was the whole point.
Note for a blast from the past, many brands made rangefinding scopes back in the 70's and 80's using the benefit of SFP. With a bracketing line, circle or mark, the magnification was adjusted until the "standard" size target was bracketed. Read the distance off the scope mag ring and away you go
Of course, there was plenty of room for error and the concept didn't last long BUT it can easily be replicated today with ANY SFP scope. Good, bad or whatever..... I much prefer the rangefinder and consider it a must use when distance stretch out.
A few brands still use a similar system but with rangefinders being prolific, not a big deal anymore.
If all of this scope use is only to engage targets within 400yds, seems like a whole lot of extra work for nothing. Know your cartridge and do some real world shooting.
Many modern cartridges fly flat enough in the first 400yds, that with minimal adjustment can engage large game easily.
YMMV
Jerry
Seems to work fine regardless of cartridge but I suspect it's not as accurate as dialing for sure. It is a hunting reticle.
Yes, every tool is limited in its applications and range estimating with a reticle definitely has its limitations. With range estimating knowing the size of things
(or the average size where game is concerned) is key; without that knowledge there is no point in even trying. As with shooting, it takes practice and the
willingness to learn to become reasonably proficient at estimating an objects dimensions. Then, as you've pointed out, if your scope is properly constructed
and calibrated you can usually get a reasonable ballpark figure to work with.
Personally, I am not very good at estimating distances unaided and I am definitely not the worlds best shot (not even close). But I do find milling reticles
useful for getting within the MPBR of the particular load I might be using - the further within the MPBR the better - and then letting the gods of the hunt and
hopefully a steady hold do the rest. One thing I do find disconcerting is the complete lack of compact scopes that have reasonable ranging reticles
(or milling reticles). I've never been a fan of MilDots - god knows at my age I've got enough dots floating my vision without people putting them there
intentionally - and finding a scope that isn't 14+ inches long, which weighs 1.5+ pounds and has a "good" sub-tension marked reticle is near impossible.
And no, BDC reticles don't fill the bill. But the industry is always changing, maybe the perfect scope for my needs will be in next years catalog.
Later, Rob
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
All excellent points indeed.
Have a look at the new Sightron SIII 1-7x24 IRMOA scope. Might be exactly what you have been waiting for. I am stunned at how good the low mag is. I can literally aim at my feet.
The 7X is plenty good for engaging an animal out to 600yds.
Hash mark reticle make it easy to adjust for elevation and adjustment, ranging, whatever.
for the money, nothing comes close.
Let me know... Free shipping on this scope till end of Nov.
Jerry
Have a look at the new Sightron SIII 1-7x24 IRMOA scope. Might be exactly what you have been waiting for. I am stunned at how good the low mag is. I can literally aim at my feet.
The 7X is plenty good for engaging an animal out to 600yds.
Hash mark reticle make it easy to adjust for elevation and adjustment, ranging, whatever.
for the money, nothing comes close.
Let me know... Free shipping on this scope till end of Nov.
Jerry
agreed. i have been trying to find a decent scope for my cz455 for a while now that isnt gigantic. i do benchrest shooting so i do need some decent magnification but something which isnt as long as my barrel would be really nice.
Jerry:
You might not have noticed, but I kinda got this thing going for MRAD scopes. And while Sightron does make fine scopes, they haven't really come over to the Dark Side of the Force
with any kind of commitment. I know they have some tactical MRAD/MOA offerings, but I don't think you would counsel that route. When Sightron offers a nice MRAD/MRAD scope
in reasonably light, compact package, you can bet I'll take an interest in it. I mean Sightron offers some good quality products, why wouldn't I be interested. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
MOA/MOA is by far our biggest seller. So much easier for new and experienced shooters to use as most are comfy with the MOA system for both competiton and LR shooting.
Sightron DOES make mrad/mrad scopes. Every scope in their SIII lineup has mrad/mrad. Even in FFP
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-Series/SIIISS1050X60LRIRMH/
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-Series/SIIISS3.510X44LRMD-CM/
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-Series/SIIISS624X50LRFFPMH/ this is the FFP scope
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-Series/SIIISS624X50LRMD-CM/
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-Series/SIIISS832X56LRMDCM/
Of course for most, they are SFP so you need to find the correct mag to match up with reticle subtension so your get 1 MRAD per dot or hash mark.
Mildot is by definition an MRAD reticle.
Sightron just uses different names so shooters don't find them as easily but they have been there for a few years.
Jerry
Sightron DOES make mrad/mrad scopes. Every scope in their SIII lineup has mrad/mrad. Even in FFP
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-Series/SIIISS1050X60LRIRMH/
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-Series/SIIISS3.510X44LRMD-CM/
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-Series/SIIISS624X50LRFFPMH/ this is the FFP scope
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-Series/SIIISS624X50LRMD-CM/
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-Series/SIIISS832X56LRMDCM/
Of course for most, they are SFP so you need to find the correct mag to match up with reticle subtension so your get 1 MRAD per dot or hash mark.
Mildot is by definition an MRAD reticle.
Sightron just uses different names so shooters don't find them as easily but they have been there for a few years.
Jerry
That's really good to know and to be honest I actually much prefer SFP scopes, especially if they are done the way Vortex does their SFP Viper PST scope; I find them extremely
useful. Now they have to make one that is non-MilDot sub-tensioned and of a reasonable size and weight.
I've been looking in to BCD reticules some more just in case I was mistaken about SFP and BDC reticules.
like I thought , turns out I'm correct on this.
this here is a response to a question about magnification and SFP and BCD reticules on vortex's you tube.
"Vortex Optics
Since all of our riflescopes with BDC reticles are second focal plane scopes, they all require that the magnification to be set to the highest power to be used accurately. If the magnication is set to a lower power, the hash marks will be worth more than they are designed to be. Thanks again and please let us know if there's anything else I can do for you. "
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I'll reread the thread when I have a moment just in case I miss understood what you where saying sheephunter but from my research what I was saying is indeed correct and NOT miss information at all.
either you are miss-understanding what I said or you are incorrect as to who SFP and BDC work.
like I thought , turns out I'm correct on this.
this here is a response to a question about magnification and SFP and BCD reticules on vortex's you tube.
"Vortex Optics
Since all of our riflescopes with BDC reticles are second focal plane scopes, they all require that the magnification to be set to the highest power to be used accurately. If the magnication is set to a lower power, the hash marks will be worth more than they are designed to be. Thanks again and please let us know if there's anything else I can do for you. "
.
I'll reread the thread when I have a moment just in case I miss understood what you where saying sheephunter but from my research what I was saying is indeed correct and NOT miss information at all.
either you are miss-understanding what I said or you are incorrect as to who SFP and BDC work.
Or not all SFP ballistic reticles are the same
The fact that the subtension changes with magnification change should give you the answer.here is where I might have missed your meaning , the word "IF" and like I was saying IF you are not on the correct magnification when you need to break the shot or you forgot to turn it to the correct magnification, then mental MATH is required to compensate.
If you realize that you aren't on the right magnification, wouldn't it just be easier to turn the mag ring rather than do a complex math equation? Seriously, having one simple thing to remember on a long range shot really isn't that taxing on the brain. If it is, you are likely right that a ffp scope is the answer, providing you remember what yardages your mildots represent or you remember to turn the elevation turret..
If you remember what yardages your secondary aim points represent or you remember to turn your elevation turret. Sometimes one forgets.
I'm not saying one is superior to the other but to say one requires you to remember things and the other doesn't is just plain false.
yes you do need to know you trajectory for that days conditions.
what do you do for your setup when the temp and air density changes?
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you know what weird for some reason I'm not seeing your whole post the last sentence of this quote did not show up till I quoted it.
