Advice requested: ONT charge - "Unlawfully possess another person's seal"

If you were party hunting? why can't you carry some elses seal? or why can you carry a rifle in a hunting party without a tag?
I am not passing judgment but surly if you had already used your tag you shouldn't be carrying a firearm, no?
 
Pay it carry on,we all ##### about the lack of enforcement on poachers etc and then when one of our own gets a legitimate ticket (my opinion only) we all cry, cant have it both ways.I am assuming your story is how you remember it but to many loop holes and forgetfulness for me.Any one who cannot be trusted with there license should not be carrying a firearm.
 
From the story the OP has posted, I would count your blessings that this was the only charge you received. Forgetting your tag was used the previous day wasn't a good opener, then you didn't have your own license portion of the tag on your possession, (a very stupid system the MNR has come up with on these new ridiculous tags, but that's another story), you didn't get your license portion back from your hunting buddy (it would be illegal for him to have it in the first place, and illegal for him to place your game seal on an animal) and then you had your stepson's tag in your possession, obviously also illegal. You are lucky you didn't have 3 or 4 different charges. I'd be smiling that you only got one ticket.

All that being said, many tickets laid in Ontario during rifle season, are laid by officers who are not local, and most tickets are expected to be paid without contest. If you were to take the ticket to court, and plead not guilty, there is a good chance the officer won't show up (because it would be out of his way also) and the ticket would be thrown out. There's a chance of that happening, there is also the chance he will show and you will make the trip to Parry Sound, and still be paying a ticket.

My suggestion, you were guilty, pay the ticket, learn from it and move on.
 
From the OP's story, you got off lucky with one fine, as there were at least 3 other charges they could have hit you with. If you end up in court, don't tell them the story you told us.

I would just pay it, and next time, let each person carry their own papers.
 
Sharkson said:
.....But I had forgotten that my seal was on a deer shot the previous day and hanging back in the hunt camp garage. The licence portion had not been returned to me by the fellow who attached the seal!!!.....
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Is it not a requirement that only the person who holds a seal may attach the seal?
If so, would you want to use this explanation in court about what happened to your seal?
 
Correct. The person who owns the seal is the only one who can attach it to an animal at the site of the kill. Anyone in the party can shoot it, but only the tag holder can tag it. You cannot "send the tag" over with another person.
The tag holder is also the only person who can carry it around (the seal)
Possessing another persons license or seal is an offence.
 
Two things will save you when stopped by a CO or LEO. Preparation and Process.
Preparation includes knowing the laws and regs and preparing for "what ifs" before they happen. Having firearms licence, hunting licence, letters giving permission to hunt, etc. on hand and available is a must. "Its in the car", or "its back at camp" excuses don't cut it. Get in the habit of carrying your documents everywhere you go while hunting or fishing (yes fishing...) or shooting.

Process includes knowing the laws and regs for transporting and using firearms. Having and using a gun sock or case while out walking in the bush (dawn / dusk), unloading your rifle when crossing a roadway on foot, etc. Process also includes how you interact with the LEO or CO, courtesy and respect shown as appropriate to them.

As CROWCA said above, many of our predecessors who recklessly hunted or shot targets without regard for the rules have tarnished the experience for the current group of hunters. If you have your ducks in a row, encounters with LEO's or CO's can be a tolerable experience.

Two years ago during summer bear season, I actually got help from a CO who gave me a lift in his SUV back to camp when the sole of my boot stripped off while hunting and I had just the boot body on my foot (like a moccasin). I nearly crapped my drawers when I saw it was CO pulling up to me as I limped back to camp. He asked me to show the rifle was safe, checked my paperwork, licence and permits, etc. (I was on a road allowance walking back to camp) had a brief discussion about my wildlife observations (or lack thereof). I was by myself, without a boot sole and a really sore foot, but I had my ducks in a row and I was confident I was in compliance with the laws and regulations. Knowing the rules and regs and being prepared gave me that confidence. After a few minutes, he made me feel at ease and offered the ride.


My point is, CO's aren't all bad guys, many also hunt and fish, own and shoot guns and enjoy the outdoors like us too after all. Thats what drew them to the job in the first place. Some come from the bio-science or conservation side and dont have the interest in guns or shooting but are still asked to enforce the laws and regulations as part of their job duties.

To the OP, (no offense intended..I was not there and dont know the full situation) I sense (and I suspect other posters sense this too) that you may not have had full knowledge of the laws and regulations when stopped, and that in turn started the whole process of "closer scrutiny" by the COs. Same thing can happen with LEO's or border guards, etc. As other posters have said, pay the fine, chalk it up to a learning experience and move on. Take the approach of "Catch me once, thats fine...catch me twice, I'm the fool." You will be better prepared for the next encounter...
 
By the letter of the law you did contravene the law. If you plead not guilty you'd have to prove that the law was not intended to apply in your situation. Your other option is to plead guilty with an explanation.....there is a possibility you could walk out with a complete and absolute discharge or there is a chance you could end up paying more. Personally, I'd just pay the fine and count it as a lesson learned.
 
wilsy said:
If you were party hunting? why can't you carry some elses seal? or why can you carry a rifle in a hunting party without a tag?
I am not passing judgment but surly if you had already used your tag you shouldn't be carrying a firearm, no?
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In Ontario you could have 10 guys party hunting together all carrying rifles and legal to shoot a deer even if 9 of them have already tagged one. You are still allowed to hunt once your seal has been used but you must be hunting with someone who still has one.
 
sheephunter said:
By the letter of the law you did contravene the law. If you plead not guilty you'd have to prove that the law was not intended to apply in your situation. Your other option is to plead guilty with an explanation.....there is a possibility you could walk out with a complete and absolute discharge or there is a chance you could end up paying more. Personally, I'd just pay the fine and count it as a lesson learned.
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I agree with the above noted.

One thing you did not say was the offence date. You did however said somewhere on this thread that the "Court Date" was yesterday or today. They normally give you at least 3-4 weeks to deal with the matter. Seems like you waited for the last hour to deal with the issue, and chose to write a post for "advice". Perhaps this matter should have been followed up as soon as possible. You also mentioned on your first post:

"It may be "legal" to penalize me, but certainly this doesn't feel like any sort of justice as I did nothing dangerous, unsafe or unethical."

So what you are saying is that anyone committing "White Collar" crimes should not be charged?

And another tip: Except for a few, there are way too many "Wannabe" lawyers here, and trying to get intelligent advice can be quite challenging. Get some real advice from a real lawyer.

And another thing. Profiling Law Enforcement groups is very easy on any given social media. I'm sure most here had more pleasant experiences, including myself, than "bad ones". Interesting why the "pleasant ones" aren't shared.
 
It's your duty to take this to court, fight it and make it cost the gov't more than the ticket they gave you (judge salary, prosecutors salary, cops salary, court costs).
You'll lose, you were wrong by the letter of the law, but you can at least burden the system a little and make it cost the system more than it costs you.
That is satisfaction enough to make the ticket worth it. May as well get your monies worth. :)
 
Tell the judge that you are a free man on the land and not subject to admiralty law since you are not a corperation and require no permit from any self appointed authority to forage for food .
 
Meanwhile, the REAL poachers get off scot free, cos they don't bother themselves with paperwork. This is just another example of "papers please". The officer on the ground (the one who spoke to you) could've easily made a judgement call based on your record and the fact that you DO have a seal/licence/whatever.

Instead, he made the call to thumb you down. So, the next time you see an MNR officer approach... will you help him or hinder him? No prizes for guessing.
 
Darth Vaper said:
It's your duty to take this to court, fight it and make it cost the gov't more than the ticket they gave you (judge salary, prosecutors salary, cops salary, court costs).
You'll lose, you were wrong by the letter of the law, but you can at least burden the system a little and make it cost the system more than it costs you.
That is satisfaction enough to make the ticket worth it. May as well get your monies worth. :)
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What???
All they have to ask in court is, "Did you or did you not have your stepson's license in your possession" "Guilty as charged" This guy made a mistake, did something illegal, (knowing it or not) and got a legitimate fine, and was very lucky he (or others in his party) didn't get a few other charges by the story he tells. Why would you waste the courts time, cost the government (aka, your own tax dollars, money you are spending) more money? He was guilty, pay the fine. Nobody likes being fined, but if you are in the wrong, you are in the wrong, no sense whining and stomping your feet about it. Like fighting speeding tickets, or parking tickets, if you were guilty pay up, if you weren't guilty you wouldn't be charged in the first place. The OP clearly admits he was wrong, by carrying his stepson's license, he admits guilt. (plus a bunch of other stuff he should/could have been charged with)
If less people would "tie up the courts" by fighting these petty fines that they know they were guilty of, the courts and LEO's or CO's would have more time to do their jobs and deal with the real problems.
I amazes me how many people think Co's and LEO's are just d!ckheads because they lay fines, but they are just doing their jobs. If they didn't check anyone, they wouldn't catch anyone doing wrong. Writing ticket, however petty brings money back in, to offset the cost to the government, which is our tax dollars. I know we don't have much control over how our hard earned tax dollars are spent, but I certainly don't want to see them uselessly wasted by people trying to fight a ticket they received, because they were guilty.

Edit ** To the OP, I am sorry you received the fine, I'm not trying to make you out to be a bad guy. You made a mistake, even if the mistake is not knowing the laws.
 
Darth Vaper said:
It's your duty to take this to court, fight it and make it cost the gov't more than the ticket they gave you (judge salary, prosecutors salary, cops salary, court costs).
You'll lose, you were wrong by the letter of the law, but you can at least burden the system a little and make it cost the system more than it costs you.
That is satisfaction enough to make the ticket worth it. May as well get your monies worth. :)
Click to expand...


so we (as taxpayers) should all have to pay for his mistake. Yeah, that's great logic..............
 
AbLonewolf said:
I agree with the above noted.

"It may be "legal" to penalize me, but certainly this doesn't feel like any sort of justice as I did nothing dangerous, unsafe or unethical."

So what you are saying is that anyone committing "White Collar" crimes should not be charged?
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While many of you have pointed out my mistakes, including dealing with the issue only in the last few days remaining (doh!), I don't agree with your implication. "White collar" crimes like fraud are not "violent crimes", but they still deprive someone else of their property or money. That's why they are called crimes.

I clearly committed a "paper offence" of carrying my stepson's seal, but I did not steal from anyone nor did I endanger or hurt anyone. Mine was a victimless crime. If my stepson had instead carried his seal, would I not have still been entitled to take a deer and then have him come over and attach it?

I can understand the reason for the rules, but I certainly didn't "do a bad thing". I will admit that my group has been sloppy in some of our paperwork practices, but we always hunt safely, and everyone has the appropriate licences all the time. This experience will ensure that we will have all our papers in order next time.

I was entitled to put my seal on my friend's deer. I gave it to him to do because I headed back to the camp to make lunch for my cold 13 year son. I know I am supposed to put it on the deer myself, but where is the harm in having my friend do it?? Yes, I know it is against the regs. But no one was harmed, and we took no deer that we were not entitled to take.

We have become a society of extreme laws and regulations in order that we are "safe". There is a cost in liberty and some might argue that all the added "safety" isn't worth all the rules. And no, that doesn't mean I think we shouldn't have hunting regs and the MNR to enforce them.

I think one of the side effects of Canadians being so "law abiding" is that we also just accept too much regulation, when it often isn't necessary. We have to get more comfortable with telling our elected politicians "NO - we don't want or need that". There is a big difference between being a law abiding subject, and a law abiding, participating citizen.

That means thinking long and hard before spouting lines like "Ignorance of the law is not a defence" or " if you weren't guilty you wouldn't be charged in the first place". Just because it is the law doesn't mean it is justice. We all know that, but first instinct is to just believe the LEO is right. "He's just doing his job" won't cut it all the time.

And in my specific case, I do think I could have been more harshly treated with additional charges. So I am not blaming the CO. I am blaming the black and white nature of the system and mostly, blaming us for allowing things to become so complex. That certainly applies to the Firearms Act!!
 
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