IPSC Ontario elections

[TJspeller]

I don't think that the cost of matches is what influence attendance. Not even a bit.
We spend thousands and thousands of dollars a year on this. Whether the match fee is 10 or 60 dollars is not the reason why we attend the match.

At least for me, attendance depends on
1) a time I can make it
2) a place that does not involve many hours drive. 2 hours is pretty much maximum within the constraints of someone with a job and family.

Little else. The gas I spend to drive back and forth probably costs as much as the match.

More money in the sport, through match fees, means we can
-pay people to set up and make nice courses with good equipment
-maybe we can get more clubs to participate if they see some of that money


I think that ranges, devoted media, etc will follow once the numbers are there. Hell, if there is enough demand, ranges dedicated to IPSC which pay their bills through IPSC match fees and advertising are imaginable.


Imagine a range somewhere between Toronto and Silverdale or Toronto and Peterborough, that does nothing but run IPSC matches or other handgun activity. No rifles and no shotgun, which means it probably does not require as much land. It has 4 ranges, runs level 3 matches on weekends, and level 1 and 2 matches some weekdays. It offers a regular BB course. It as a regualr "course pro" who teaches. It is a mecca for advertisers because so many handgun shooters go through it. And it works because it runs a profit based on match fees, BB course fees, and advertising income. Of course there would be a gun shop there too. That's how the sport grows.

And it's possible. Silverdale is not growing, adding more ranges, because of of the kindness of the owners. They are making money.

 

[arancio]

Personally...I think the blackcurrant badge is too long as it is...if it was a week I would not have done it.

Anyone who thinks it takes more than an hour to demonstrate safe gun handling is delusional

It only takes five minutes to demonstrate safe gun handling. Teaching it is a whole different thing. Some people never learn.

 

[7.62mm]

So, just a quick calculation....

DQs from last USA IPSC NATS in Florida.....24 DQ's 355 shooters......6.7%
DQs from Canada IPSC Nationals 2013......14 DQ's....278 shooters.....5.0%
DQs from Canada IPSC Nationals 2012......10 DQ's....204 shhoters.....4.9%

Not a ringing endorsement for the BB course imho!

 

[colt45gunner]

Alex is head and shoulders above other candidates.

Well, he is tall, but does he have dandruff ?

 

[PeterPan]

I don't think that the cost of matches is what influence attendance. Not even a bit.
We spend thousands and thousands of dollars a year on this. Whether the match fee is 10 or 60 dollars is not the reason why we attend the match.

Match fee is very important factor why some are attending certain matches and usually it is looked first. I have shooting diary and every year I spend for match fees and membership fees like IPSC, USPSA, two ranges between 1,800 - 2,000. This doesn't include gas, hotel and food. If someone runs a 60-80 rounds match and charge ridiculous amount, I wont waste my time.

At least for me, attendance depends on
1) a time I can make it
2) a place that does not involve many hours drive. 2 hours is pretty much maximum within the constraints of someone with a job and family.

Little else. The gas I spend to drive back and forth probably costs as much as the match.

More money in the sport, through match fees, means we can
-pay people to set up and make nice courses with good equipment
-maybe we can get more clubs to participate if they see some of that money .

Every IPSC match or most of them are geared towards profit, usually it stays in the club or private entity can cash in on a match. I don't care who grabs money, all I care is the quality of the match, round numbers, how efficiently is run. And yes, I do believe, those who are working matches, should be payed for time they take off or spend in sun, rain or cold.

I think that ranges, devoted media, etc will follow once the numbers are there. Hell, if there is enough demand, ranges dedicated to IPSC which pay their bills through IPSC match fees and advertising are imaginable. .

Media, it is not that simple. We are afraid of media, we are afraid even of allowing competitors record their own shooting. This is more political, than you may think. Numbers will not change nothing, rather political strategy.


Imagine a range somewhere between Toronto and Silverdale or Toronto and Peterborough, that does nothing but run IPSC matches or other handgun activity. No rifles and no shotgun, which means it probably does not require as much land. It has 4 ranges, runs level 3 matches on weekends, and level 1 and 2 matches some weekdays. It offers a regular BB course. It as a regualr "course pro" who teaches. It is a mecca for advertisers because so many handgun shooters go through it. And it works because it runs a profit based on match fees, BB course fees, and advertising income. Of course there would be a gun shop there too. That's how the sport grows.

And it's possible. Silverdale is not growing, adding more ranges, because of of the kindness of the owners. They are making money.[/QUOTE]

So what is your solution?
I have already stated on IPSC ON forum that we need our own facility and it wasn't received to well, what would you do to improve current state beside promoting Alex?

 

[colt45gunner]

So, just a quick calculation....

DQs from last USA IPSC NATS in Florida.....24 DQ's 355 shooters......6.7%
DQs from Canada IPSC Nationals 2013......14 DQ's....278 shooters.....5.0%
DQs from Canada IPSC Nationals 2012......10 DQ's....204 shhoters.....4.9%

Not a ringing endorsement for the BB course imho!

True, you can't go with just few simple examples. There's more to know, like type of DQ, I think would make a difference. Example, if many stages have lots of backward/left - right, super tight angles where targets were set up pretty much at 90, etc... Not that any excuses should be given for anyone who's DQ'd,
but if a match is very DQ friendly in it's set up, as was our nationals this year (and not on purpose, likely by honest mistakes in set up), would increase # of likely DQ's.
I don't know if US match in link Peter gave was DQ trap stages or if more due to shooter error.....yes, it's all shooter error, but I hope you get the point I'm trying to make,
Again, it be interesting if more stats were available to compare the DQ's in Canada vs. U.S.
And also if DQ %'s are up or down in recent years, as opposed to the 90's, early 2000's, here in Canada/Ontario.

 

[TJspeller]

I have already stated on IPSC ON forum that we need our own facility and it wasn't received to well, what would you do to improve current state beside promoting Alex?
[/COLOR]

I've not been a party to any such discussions, being a newb, but why was this idea dismissed. It requires a capital expenditure, of course, but who would be better positioned to create the first such facility than IPSC Ontario. Is there no potential partner who would share some of the costs and some of the risks?

As for match fees - what percentage of your annual costs for shooting are match fees?
I don't attend a match every weekend. It's impossible. My goal is to attend once a month during the spring - fall season. Obviously I am not a hardcore IPSC guy like some of the people I see who compete once a week or more, but I am the kind of guy IPSC needs to attract to grow. A guy with more money than free time, who will stay a member and contribute to the sport through his existence, his dues, and his political activity, even if he never comes in the top 10 in any match he/she attends. A fraction of the guys who start out like me might turn into hardcore IPSC shooters when time and life permits it, if they have the interest, but most won't of course. Hopefully they will just keep showing up to a few matches each year, not quitting because it's too hard to find a match.

And when I started out with handguns a few years back I looked pretty hard for some instruction - it's not that easy to find I would say, and having a buddy at the range who has been shooting 2 years more than you give you a few pointers does not count as instruction.

 

[colt45gunner]

and thus why the bod is likely to try and put together a mentorhship program, even though there was suppose to be one last time, nothing really came of it...
Hopefully, they'll find a way to get more experience members to take on helping/instructing newbies...

 

[PeterPan]

I've not been a party to any such discussions, being a newb, but why was this idea dismissed. It requires a capital expenditure, of course, but who would be better positioned to create the first such facility than IPSC Ontario. Is there no potential partner who would share some of the costs and some of the risks?

As for match fees - what percentage of your annual costs for shooting are match fees?
I don't attend a match every weekend. It's impossible. My goal is to attend once a month during the spring - fall season. Obviously I am not a hardcore IPSC guy like some of the people I see who compete once a week or more, but I am the kind of guy IPSC needs to attract to grow. A guy with more money than free time, who will stay a member and contribute to the sport through his existence, his dues, and his political activity, even if he never comes in the top 10 in any match he/she attends. A fraction of the guys who start out like me might turn into hardcore IPSC shooters when time and life permits it, if they have the interest, but most won't of course. Hopefully they will just keep showing up to a few matches each year, not quitting because it's too hard to find a match.

And when I started out with handguns a few years back I looked pretty hard for some instruction - it's not that easy to find I would say, and having a buddy at the range who has been shooting 2 years more than you give you a few pointers does not count as instruction.

TJ,
range idea got dismissed because administration hassle. But I believe that would be an excellent place for guys like Alex, Joe, John and others to run matches. IPSC ON, would be a sole administrator and will decide on schedule and type of shooting is allow in such a facility. Farther more, it can designates few bays for range memberships, few bays for LEO or other agencies. IPSC will make money. Now, all good, but where money will go? First to pay off the range, second to maybe build another one in different location, also help with youth and promote quality. I wish to see a world champion in IPSC coming out of Ontario, would be cool to have someone like that, but how??

TJ,
every one has different goal in IPSC and there is room for every one. Some like to shoot 2-3 matches a year, some 1x a week, some like to compete all over the world. Everyone has the same say, but not every one knows the same. I think we need more guys with Alex exposure to IPSC, with his perspective on building matches, training, development, but all this needs to be put into some system, which can work and benefit everyone.

 

[PeterPan]

and thus why the bod is likely to try and put together a mentorhship program, even though there was suppose to be one last time, nothing really came of it...
Hopefully, they'll find a way to get more experience members to take on helping/instructing newbies...

Stavro,
I think it is our duty to help each other and not always for profit. You have some skills which can be helpful to new members, all you have to do is invite one to the range.
I spend lots of time helping, and on many occasions I had some new shooters not showing up, so after time it become discouraging to help others since I care more than they.
In Ontario we have enough guys who are solid shooters and can offer help for free if they are asked nicely.

 

[TJspeller]

TJ,
range idea got dismissed because administration hassle. But I believe that would be an excellent place for guys like Alex, Joe, John and others to run matches. IPSC ON, would be a sole administrator and will decide on schedule and type of shooting is allow in such a facility. Farther more, it can designates few bays for range memberships, few bays for LEO or other agencies. IPSC will make money. Now, all good, but where money will go? First to pay off the range, second to maybe build another one in different location, also help with youth and promote quality. I wish to see a world champion in IPSC coming out of Ontario, would be cool to have someone like that, but how??

TJ,
every one has different goal in IPSC and there is room for every one. Some like to shoot 2-3 matches a year, some 1x a week, some like to compete all over the world. Everyone has the same say, but not every one knows the same. I think we need more guys with Alex exposure to IPSC, with his perspective on building matches, training, development, but all this needs to be put into some system, which can work and benefit everyone.

Agree fully. Everyone will benefit.

I was just pointing out the perspective of a newb, rather than the old pros and very invested IPSC guys who have been doing this for many years. We newbs aren't going to win anything anytime soon, but we will pay the bills

 

[PeterPan]

Agree fully. Everyone will benefit.

I was just pointing out the perspective of a newb, rather than the old pros and very invested IPSC guys who have been doing this for many years. We newbs aren't going to win anything anytime soon, but we will pay the bills

TJ,
never think that way. I can see that you are friendly with Alex, why don't you approach him and ask him to guide you through and help you out with DF.
He was very helpful to me and I am grateful for that. Mind this, that there are others who can help you.
Also have a plan, figure out what is your weakest and work on this. If you spend 3-4x DF and once a week LF you will see improvement. Learn how to use pair in your timer,
and keep getting better. People will notice and will follow your lead.

Good Luck

 

[Canuck223]

TJ,
range idea got dismissed because administration hassle. But I believe that would be an excellent place for guys like Alex, Joe, John and others to run matches. IPSC ON, would be a sole administrator and will decide on schedule and type of shooting is allow in such a facility. Farther more, it can designates few bays for range memberships, few bays for LEO or other agencies. IPSC will make money. Now, all good, but where money will go? First to pay off the range, second to maybe build another one in different location, also help with youth and promote quality. I wish to see a world champion in IPSC coming out of Ontario, would be cool to have someone like that, but how??

TJ,
every one has different goal in IPSC and there is room for every one. Some like to shoot 2-3 matches a year, some 1x a week, some like to compete all over the world. Everyone has the same say, but not every one knows the same. I think we need more guys with Alex exposure to IPSC, with his perspective on building matches, training, development, but all this needs to be put into some system, which can work and benefit everyone.

Peter, I trust you know we tend to think more alike than opposed, but I am one who would sternly oppose the idea of an IPSC Ont owned and operated range.
Not because the idea of building a first class range for our sport is wrong. Clearly it's not.
I would oppose it because instead of encouraging the local clubs to host matches, it removes the incentive and the members most likely to head up the effort.

I would prefer to see our efforts concentrated on building up and rejuvenating existing ranges and encouraging more ranges to consider adding IPSC to their program.

5 years ago, who imagined Crumlin would start holding matches?

 

[PeterPan]

Peter, I trust you know we tend to think more alike than opposed, but I am one who would sternly oppose the idea of an IPSC Ont owned and operated range.
Not because the idea of building a first class range for our sport is wrong. Clearly it's not.
I would oppose it because instead of encouraging the local clubs to host matches, it removes the incentive and the members most likely to head up the effort.

I would prefer to see our efforts concentrated on building up and rejuvenating existing ranges and encouraging more ranges to consider adding IPSC to their program.

5 years ago, who imagined Crumlin would start holding matches?

I like my idea of dedicated range, because we can build it from scratch to accommodate our sport, it could be a central ground for matches and training, however I am not stupid and understand this is hard to achieve. I also support communication and any help we can give to new clubs like Crumlin or bringing Trenton. New board will have to find new ranges if we want to grow or keep growing in this pace.

 

[TJspeller]

My impression is that no new gun clubs of any size are being built in Ontario, and most new people have a hard time finding a place to shoot. If we really want to grow shooting sports, especially handgun sports (since they are most at risk) then that issue needs to be addressed. I imagine it's quite a hassle-filled task to try to get all the paperwork organize to permit this, but who better to navigate this than IPSC Ontario and its knowledgeable members.

No doubt the CFO and government want to make it as tedious and difficult as possible to discourage new range construction. It's part of their long term strategy to discourage shooting sports. If we don't overcome it, they will win eventually.

What IPSC Ontario would need is some sort of capital fund, with at least a few million dollars in it, or a private industry backer with that kind of money, to start the process. Obviously it's a risky proposition - imagine if some awesome facility is built, all is going well, and then the next government bans handguns!

 

[7.62mm]

True, you can't go with just few simple examples. There's more to know, like type of DQ, I think would make a difference. Example, if many stages have lots of backward/left - right, super tight angles where targets were set up pretty much at 90, etc... Not that any excuses should be given for anyone who's DQ'd,
but if a match is very DQ friendly in it's set up, as was our nationals this year (and not on purpose, likely by honest mistakes in set up), would increase # of likely DQ's.
I don't know if US match in link Peter gave was DQ trap stages or if more due to shooter error.....yes, it's all shooter error, but I hope you get the point I'm trying to make,
Again, it be interesting if more stats were available to compare the DQ's in Canada vs. U.S.
And also if DQ %'s are up or down in recent years, as opposed to the 90's, early 2000's, here in Canada/Ontario.

You can try and justify it any way you want Stavros....I was just posting some simple and quick numbers!

I travel to the US to shoot more matches, than I do Canadian matches, these days; I see no appreciable difference in the safety level of shooters on either side of the border! Your mileage may vary of course.

 

[colt45gunner]

You can try and justify it any way you want Stavros....I was just posting some simple and quick numbers!

I travel to the US to shoot more matches, than I do Canadian matches, these days; I see no appreciable difference in the safety level of shooters on either side of the border! Your mileage may vary of course.

Your experience south of the border and what you see in this matter is most valid and thanks for the info. I haven't gone across border in many years, but plan to soon.

 

[pauls]

.....I would oppose it because instead of encouraging the local clubs to host matches, it removes the incentive and the members most likely to head up the effort....

On the flip side, it may force clubs to step up their game and provide a better product to attract and retain competitors in their matches, vs the current system of build whatever and they will come due to supply/demand???

I agree that helping current clubs and encouraging new existing clubs is a must, but an action shooting specific club built to accommodate matches (i.e. one stage per bay, many bays), would be amazing.

We currently try and cram 2-3 stages in a rifle bay and experience huge backlogs/bottlenecks and a 2 hour match takes 6.
It becomes frustrating for everyone involved.

I try and head south of the border once and a while and have been to 9 stage matches (most of those stages being long field courses) that take 6 or so hours to run 100 shooters through due to range configuration and efficiency.
Here that would be a 2 day match.

 

[Onagoth]

The whole dq argument is purely theoretical anyways. No one knows for sure if the bb course makes any appreciable dicference

 

[TJspeller]

On the flip side, it may force clubs to step up their game and provide a better product to attract and retain competitors in their matches, vs the current system of build whatever and they will come due to supply/demand???

I agree that helping current clubs and encouraging new existing clubs is a must, but an action shooting specific club built to accommodate matches (i.e. one stage per bay, many bays), would be amazing.

We currently try and cram 2-3 stages in a rifle bay and experience huge backlogs/bottlenecks and a 2 hour match takes 6.
It becomes frustrating for everyone involved.

I try and head south of the border once and a while and have been to 9 stage matches (most of those stages being long field courses) that take 6 or so hours to run 100 shooters through due to range configuration and efficiency.
Here that would be a 2 day match.

It seems like creating that kind of facility in Ontario would be a real game changer.

If there was ever the will do to this, and agreement across the organization, I wonder if IPSC Ontario could raise money for it by selling shares.