Is there such thing as a precision black rifle????

Get a older remington 40x 308/223 repeater and bed it into a mcmillan stock. Make the fine adjustments with glass of your choice and you are good to go. US military have been doing
it since the late 1960's. They have worked most of the "issue's" out of this combination. Remington is using surplus US Army sniper rifle parts to build new receiver's and barrel's into sniper
rifle's to be sold to the public a present and into 2014.
You could also work up an M14 to do the same thing. I bought the military m14/ART 3x9 combination surplus back in the day. The US military has worked all of the "issue's" out of this
combination also.
Both of these can be done as non-restricted and have a long track record of service. The main idea is, most of these can be built and can do more than the average shooter can do.
It is all in the time put in to learn "the trade" and restricted rifles don't allow the various condition"s to be tried out.
There are a few US Military personel who have do a lot with Winchester Model 70's, Remington Model 700's and M14's. The M14 is out of the game due to a lack of part's and cost of
production. The "Black Rifle" platform is being used because that is what is being manufactured now and into the future. M14 went out of production in 1964!!!
 
cr5 said:
If you want a norinco to shoot sub MOA all you need to do is swap out everything with parts that say Springfield and have a gunsmith who specializes in the M14 platform assemble and tune it and voila MOA rifle.

Easy peasy.
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Try a barrel that says Krieger and parts that say TRW, HR or 66118
 
If you're truly talking precision rifle in a black rifle then your choices are very limited.

For precision that 6K SR25 is going to have a rough time against a much cheaper DPMS LR308. The SR25, LMT mws, Armalite AR10 (DnD or SASS) models etc are tactical rifle accurate. Which is very accurate. But if you want precision then you are looking at sub .5 moa. In which case you are looking at dedicated precision AR rifles. DPMS etc have a number.

Off hand dedicated precision rifles. DPMS LR-308, Some Rock River rifles, Stag 6R 223/5.56, Les Bauer etc. Not KAC. The precision rifles tend to be fairly affordable as the cost is mostly their barrel and trigger.

For non restricted. There really aren't any true precision black rifles. Tactical accurate? Sure a few but still other than the rare exception you're looking at sub moa being the goal not sub .5 moa. Maybe the Walther WA2000 in 308 but it's around 40K. Even then it's questionable if it would qualify as a precision rifle plus it's worth too much as a collectable.

The SL8, ACR with match barrel are your most likely options right now. For a true precision rifle in non restricted we will need a new firearm to be created that is Direct impingment or something like the ADCOR designed AR upper. Add a heavy match barrel and match trigger. Unfortunately the precision rifle doesn't sell as well as tactical. With current systems the piston systems and designs based on military reliability cost it in accuracy potential.

SL8 if you don't mind it's cost and flaws is probably the closest right now and it's more varmint accurate than precision. Next is a Swiss Arms but it's thinner non varmint/target barrel does hamper it in this area along with the gas system. Third while not a black rifle, the mini14 target is the best deal and shoots in the moa range. But again there don't seem to be any real precision non restricted black rifles. This makes sense because in the States they just use AR rifles as mentioned above.
 
Brian46 said:
someone lied to you if you actually believe that.
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No, that's experience, I've owned them all with the exception of the Swiss "sniper".
And they're about as readily available as the walther, and the Swiss' non restricted future is somewhat in limbo pending the rcmp's conclusion to their reexamination of the Swiss arms rifles.
I'm talking about nonrestricted, semi auto rifles that you can go out and buy today before stores close this evening.
The fnar comes closest, but wasn't 100% consistent sub moa.
 
Epoxy7 said:
For precision that 6K SR25 is going to have a rough time against a much cheaper DPMS LR308.... But if you want precision then you are looking at sub .5 moa. In which case you are looking at dedicated precision AR rifles. DPMS etc have a number.
Off hand dedicated precision rifles. DPMS LR-308, Some Rock River rifles, Stag 6R 223/5.56, Les Bauer etc. Not KAC.
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The SR-25 being the civilian copy of the M110 sniper rifle in use by a few military forces.
Are you're saying the DPMS (and the remainder of rifles you've quoted) is more accurate than the M110?
 
beltfed said:
The SR-25 being the civilian copy of the M110 sniper rifle in use by a few military forces.
Are you're saying the DPMS (and the remainder of rifles you've quoted) is more accurate than the M110?
Click to expand...

Let's look at the Canadian equivalent. The AR10 DND. It will shoot with the SR25 or military version. The purpose was for the spotter of the sniper. IE as part of the team so accurate semi auto support could be provided. The main sniper is still using a heavy barreled bolt action often of 300WM to 50BMG type. In other words what is being called a "sniper" rifle is more accurately filling in the modern role of designated marksman. While snipers are engaging out in the 2000 plus metre ranges these days.

The LMT mws is the perfect example of how these are really designated marksman rifles rather than truly dedicated sniper rifles. Due to modern gear the ranges today are far beyond what they used to be.

With military gear there are always compromises. Portability, reliability, price availability, training etc. Not so in civi hands. That 24" #8 contour barrel on a DPMS isn't an issue. You aren't carrying it on patrol. It doesn't have to be milspec because it's not going to be used by a military. It can exceed in some areas or be less in others. The only thing that matters is that it shoots. Weight not the same concern.

Let me ask you this will a good benchrest rifle shoot more accurately than a "sniper rifle"? Tactical coolness aside I'd bet on the BR rig anyday. It's geared/specialized for one purpose.

So do I think that heavy barreled DPMS can outshoot that SR25 which costs 6K? Absolutely. Even if you needed to get it rebarreled you're financially way better off if accuracy is your only goal. Put a #8 contour Krieger barrel on it if you want to go the same company KAC uses.

Let's look at why this is. Both are free floated and can have match triggers. Ultimately similar rifle design ie same family and action type. So now we have a true bull barrel rather than a thinner less heavy contour. There are a couple of ways to limit barrel harmonics. Shorter and stiffer or a heavier contour. The heavier contour helps disipate heat or at least give you more shots before heat affects accuracy. As the old saying goes a cold barrel is an accurate barrel.

Now let's also look at ballistics. That 1:10 twist with longer barrel gives the option of longer bullets with better BC. The extra velocity allows you to make use of this while also bucking wind better. Velocity doesn't equal more accuracy except it may give an advantage at range with environmental factors and bullet options.

Many think they can compensate for the lost velocity by loading hotter. Maybe but from what I've seen many barrels have two accuracy nodes. One hotter one less so. In some barrels you can only safely hit one of these. More velocity can often degrade accuracy as it's not the sweet spot for the barrel. Or you can't safely load to the higher velocity. So now in most cases you're back to the velocity obtained by barrel length.

You can make the same arguments with the AR15 based varmint/target rifles vs the DM style as well for all the same reasons. For $1600 a Stag 6R gives you a guaranteed sub .5 moa rifle. Compare that to a KAC DM rifle. But sub .5 moa is exactly what the Stag 6 or Les Bauer were designed for. Not DM or military use. You gain accuracy and better precision potential for weight etc.
 
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ntm said:
No, that's experience, I've owned them all with the exception of the Swiss "sniper".
And they're about as readily available as the walther, and the Swiss' non restricted future is somewhat in limbo pending the rcmp's conclusion to their reexamination of the Swiss arms rifles.
I'm talking about nonrestricted, semi auto rifles that you can go out and buy today before stores close this evening.
The fnar comes closest, but wasn't 100% consistent sub moa.
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I posted a link to one for sale on this forum, and I know of at least one more that is available for sale.

I have never seen a walther for sale on this forum, or I probably could let you know the accuracy on that one too.
 
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