I am wrong and I need your opinion

AndrewNS said:
Accuracy can not be obtained without quality. Period.

Accuracy IS repeatability, and when you are talking about firearms, the only way to get repeatability is with quality components that eliminate as many of the variables as possible. Basically you want to take out all factors except the human element. To say that a rifle can be accurate without being a quality product is just plain wrong. If the action and barrel are not quality then you have additional variables playing on your shots and will not achieve tight groups also known as repeatability...
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See what I mean? Right away the Savage fanboys tout the single element that Savage has, accuracy, and proclaim it as the be-all-end-all of firearms.
Quality isn't solely accuracy, in fact it's far from it. Tell me about the fit/finish/bluing? How about the stock? Trigger?(yes, many think the Accutrigger sucks, myself included) How about the action itself?

IMO, the Savage isn't a steal or a great deal, neither is the Remington. They're worth exactly what you pay for them. There's nothing wrong with that, I just don't get why Savage owners always feel the need to inflate them to a status they're not worthy of.
 
Savages were designed to be cheap to build, with an absolute minimum of skilled machining or fitting. Can't make a part fit? Make it adjustable. Can't headspace a barrel? Put a big nut on it. Did the world really need a bolt comprised of a shoe box full of loose parts held together by a big honking Allen screw? No, but Savage did. How about bolts that feel like stirring a can full of pebbles with a stick?

Some Savages shoot, big deal. Lots of rifles shoot.
 
I owned both and still own the savage. I would not splurge for the BA since there are other options like the bench rest version mentioned previously. The aftermarket support is huge for savage now and alot of guys like Mystic Precision shoot ragged holes with them and build off of the savage action, stay away from the cheaper axis'.
 
bearkilr said:
See what I mean? Right away the Savage fanboys tout the single element that Savage has, accuracy, and proclaim it as the be-all-end-all of firearms.
Quality isn't solely accuracy, in fact it's far from it. Tell me about the fit/finish/bluing? How about the stock? Trigger?(yes, many think the Accutrigger sucks, myself included) How about the action itself?

IMO, the Savage isn't a steal or a great deal, neither is the Remington. They're worth exactly what you pay for them. There's nothing wrong with that, I just don't get why Savage owners always feel the need to inflate them to a status they're not worthy of.
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Well, I can't speak for all Savage rifles, but the 5 that I own have very nice blueing, excellent triggers (Personally I love the Accutrigger) and flawless actions. Are the stocks great? Some of them, yes. Savages laminate and HS Precison Fiberglass Stocks are great. But at the same time, some are not even close. The plain jane synthetic stocks leave a lot to be desired. But this is a very simple upgrade.

The only down side that I can see to a factory Savage rifle is the same thing that every other rifle manufacturer has present in their lines also, the quality of the synthetic stocks. That's why companies like Boyds make a fortune selling aftermarket ones.

Is a Savage by name a better rifle than a Remington? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the individule rifle. I'm sure that Remington puts out rifles that will shoot side by side with a Savage all day long. But I do seem to see a lot more Savage owners posting threads with Sub MOA, Sub 1/2 MOA and Sub 1/4 MOA rifles right out of the box than Remington owners... Maybe Savage owners are just a little more proud and Remington guys don't care to validate their shooting here. You never know.

Just out of curiosity, how do you define quality in a firearm? A pretty looking rifle that shoots 6" groups at 100 yards? Or a descent looking rifle that has very easily replaceable parts, which can be done in your own basement, that shoots Sub MOA right out of the box? I'll stick with accuracy as the foundation to build a rifle off of and upgrade the little stuff, rather than buy pretty and chase accuracy.
 
Pretty or not a rifle that shoot sub .25 MOA on a regular basis with a nice tailored load is the essence of quality, not one group in a blue moon but 10 groups out of 10... I like to start there and go toward the lower #... On some rifle the shooting quality are so high that the shooter is the limiting factor, when you are face with that reality.... The fun as begun... JP.
 
When I shoot my Savage, I'm impressed with it, I become a fan and take good care of it.
When I shoot my Rem., I'm impressed with it, I become a fan and take good care of it.
When I shoot my Lee Enfield, I'm impressed with it, I become a fan and take good care of it.
When I shoot my SKS, I'm impressed with it, I become a fan and take good care of it.
And on.....And on....

All depends on what I happen to be doing that day.
OP.......lots of good info in this thread, foget about the chest pounding fanatical brand fans.
 
AndrewNS said:
Just out of curiosity, how do you define quality in a firearm? A pretty looking rifle that shoots 6" groups at 100 yards? Or a descent looking rifle that has very easily replaceable parts, which can be done in your own basement, that shoots Sub MOA right out of the box? I'll stick with accuracy as the foundation to build a rifle off of and upgrade the little stuff, rather than buy pretty and chase accuracy.
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Yes, you're right. All pretty guns are inaccurate.
 
bearkilr said:
Yes, you're right. All pretty guns are inaccurate.
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Yes, you're right, that's EXACTLY what I said.

I'm not implying that a gun that looks good out of the box is not accurate, what I'm saying is given the choice of what platform to build off of, I would choose the platform that gives the best out of the box accuracy and upgrade the looks.

To call a gun that shoots Sub MOA out of the box "Cheap" is not an accurate statement. In-expensive? Sure. They are sold at a low cost. That doesn't mean that they are "Cheap" or lacking in quality.
 
May really all come down to how deep your pockets are and willingness to pay a premium. Personally, I'll keep the cash for components and DIY when I can. This makes more time and money to go out and shoot. And that is where the lego builder comes out in me. A savage can support DIY while other platforms require you to have deep pockets. With some good guidance just about anyone with some skills can assemble a Sub 1/3 MOA rifle in about 45 minutes from pieces. It is hard to compete with that $ when considering a real life shop rates at $100/hour or more. The higher the expectations you go then the higher the cost will be. The cost of a Sub 0.1 gun may not be in the cards for most common folk. The mighty buck will rule.

IMO its 90% percent barrel, 10%platform, 100% shooters skills. Happily shooting bug holes with my cheapo savages.....Elky.
 
Beautifull rifle, first shots out of the box, ammo factory Nosler Accubond 165 gr, 100 yards, this is likely the biggest group this rifle will shoot... After some load devellopment all groups will be tighter... JP.
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AndrewNS said:
Well, I can't speak for all Savage rifles, but the 5 that I own have very nice blueing, excellent triggers (Personally I love the Accutrigger) and flawless actions. Are the stocks great? Some of them, yes. Savages laminate and HS Precison Fiberglass Stocks are great. But at the same time, some are not even close. The plain jane synthetic stocks leave a lot to be desired. But this is a very simple upgrade.

The only down side that I can see to a factory Savage rifle is the same thing that every other rifle manufacturer has present in their lines also, the quality of the synthetic stocks. That's why companies like Boyds make a fortune selling aftermarket ones.

Is a Savage by name a better rifle than a Remington? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the individule rifle. I'm sure that Remington puts out rifles that will shoot side by side with a Savage all day long. But I do seem to see a lot more Savage owners posting threads with Sub MOA, Sub 1/2 MOA and Sub 1/4 MOA rifles right out of the box than Remington owners... Maybe Savage owners are just a little more proud and Remington guys don't care to validate their shooting here. You never know.

Just out of curiosity, how do you define quality in a firearm? A pretty looking rifle that shoots 6" groups at 100 yards? Or a descent looking rifle that has very easily replaceable parts, which can be done in your own basement, that shoots Sub MOA right out of the box? I'll stick with accuracy as the foundation to build a rifle off of and upgrade the little stuff, rather than buy pretty and chase accuracy.
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very good question Sir !!! :D although I like the looks of the BA, to be honest I would take a pug fugly very accurate rifle that shoots excellent ....scratchs dings and all, all day every day over something pretty that isn't accurate.
 
there is a 10 BA in the EE as we speak.....not mine and I don't stand to gain anything from inserting a shameful plug on your thread...........

Just put that new barrel on your mossin and start shooting something already................or did you come to your senses on that one???
 
silen said:
very good question Sir !!! :D although I like the looks of the BA, to be honest I would take a pug fugly very accurate rifle that shoots excellent ....scratchs dings and all, all day every day over something pretty that isn't accurate.
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It's funny... My favourite range days are when the guys with rifles that they have tons of money into, and I out shoot them with a bone stock Savage Model 11 with a $100 scope on it.
 
yodave said:
there is a 10 BA in the EE as we speak.....not mine and I don't stand to gain anything from inserting a shameful plug on your thread...........

Just put that new barrel on your mossin and start shooting something already................or did you come to your senses on that one???
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That is a completely seperate project that I have allocated for...and which I will not be dealing with that particular company.... when buying a car one is not expected to become a mechanic...so I would think when you ask a pro by giving them certain parameters (heavy barrel/200m/ type of action etc) that should be enough to get a quote or an idea instead of ....."go do the research yourself".....if I wanted to and had that ability and understanding ...I would not have asked a pro in the first place :p I should not have to be a 'smith to have a rifle built...same as one should not need to be a mechanic to buy a nice car..yet .you can still be a very good driver :p
Before I get all fired up here lol...back to the topic at hand...

more info from anyone on 700's/savages/etc etc I am trying my best to take it all in and appreciate anything relevant from fellow Nutters :)
 
Yesterday, I decided to do a blind test. I went to wholesale sports in Lethbridge with a friend who has shot some, and knows a little about guns, not a lot. He only has a .22lr, and that has been about the extent of his shooting. The gun counter wasn't busy, so I got the guy there to hand out different rifles for him to hold, shoulder, cycle, and in general get a feel for. We brought out a savage, remington (which he said not to buy due to QC issues unless a rebuild was going to happen), browning, Winchester, CZ, Tikka, and a few others I don't remember the names of off the top of my head. For under $1500, my friend liked the CZ and the Winchester 70 for feel best. I have quite a few CZs in bolt guns (8 at the moment), and have been in the process of selling off many of the non CZ bolt guns I have, except for 2 mausers I have. I"ve found them to be very accurate, reliable guns, and very comfortable.

So, I"ll I"m sayign to do is go to a few stores, and fondle a few of them for a bit. You might be surprised what you like. You will enjoy shooting what feels comfortable more than something that's not so comfortable.
 
I wanted to take a second and thank everyone for any information...I have been waiting a long time and mulling this over alot ..I appreciate sincerely all your input (been watching alot of videos and reading because of it)!
So again, I thank you fellow nutters and as always feel free to jump in and add your opinions :)
 
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