FBI replacing .40cal with 9mm?
- Thread starter illumined
- Start date
I carry a 9mm everyday with one of the modern "wonder bullets" loaded in it. Would I pick something different if I had the choice? Yep. Bottom line though is that I don't have a choice and I feel confident in what I do have. I do also agree that marksmanship thing is paramount. I have been on a two way firing range and some degree of marksmanship will inevitably go out the window when that situation does arise.
- Location
- Fort St John B.C.
people in the know say,
80% of people shot with a pistol live.....
80% of people shot with a rifle or shotgun die....
i forget who said it but it was someone in law enforcement.
80% of people shot with a pistol live.....
80% of people shot with a rifle or shotgun die....
i forget who said it but it was someone in law enforcement.
Sounds like something Harry Callahan would say.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
It's taken a long time for the FBI to come full circle again to the 9mm versus the 40 S&W.
Maybe in a few decades they will adopt an N-frame in 38 special high speed as a close second choice to a sixgun 357 mag?
Maybe in a few decades they will adopt an N-frame in 38 special high speed as a close second choice to a sixgun 357 mag?
If you did have a choice, what would you choose? Just curious.
TinkerBell, on a two way range, it ain't whether or not they die after they are shot, it is how quickly they stop trying to kill you! Neither cops nor CCW holders shoot, nor are legally entitled to shoot, to kill. They shoot to put an abrupt end to behaviour they deem grievously dangerous to themselves, or those in their charge.. The avenues to do so open to any handgun are limited. A CNS hit in the thorax, a brain shot between the eyes or ear hole, and hopefully, the Hollywood effect, wherein folks receiving minor gunshot wounds believe they must react dramatically and become immediately incapacitated. Any will do just fine if he is shooting at you! Standing about waiting for an armed, aggressive assailant to bleed out, which is how most bullet wounds cause death, is a poor option.
If we examine the daily routine of a patrol officer or an investigator, it is plain to see that lugging a short-barreled 12 gauge in and out of his car, in and out of your apartment, up and down on the grass and gravel in scuffles with his clientele is highly unsatisfactory. Indeed, a slung long gun would be a distinct disadvantage in physical confrontations with wrong-doers. A good secure holster keeps popular issue service guns on the hip, out of the hands of would be wrestlemania stars and their girlfriends!
So, choice of a caliber matters. Capacity not so much, since if it ain't solved in the first couple of rounds, it likely won't be solved until after the first reload. Choice of bullet matters, in the off chance you get a good hit and the bullet performs properly, you likely win. If you did so quickly enough that the bad guy didn't land a fatal blow first.
If we examine the daily routine of a patrol officer or an investigator, it is plain to see that lugging a short-barreled 12 gauge in and out of his car, in and out of your apartment, up and down on the grass and gravel in scuffles with his clientele is highly unsatisfactory. Indeed, a slung long gun would be a distinct disadvantage in physical confrontations with wrong-doers. A good secure holster keeps popular issue service guns on the hip, out of the hands of would be wrestlemania stars and their girlfriends!
So, choice of a caliber matters. Capacity not so much, since if it ain't solved in the first couple of rounds, it likely won't be solved until after the first reload. Choice of bullet matters, in the off chance you get a good hit and the bullet performs properly, you likely win. If you did so quickly enough that the bad guy didn't land a fatal blow first.
Ill admit im not a cop, but i would assume if they engage a threat then until the threat is down, they would continue to fire. So capacity does matter. It keeps you in the fight longer.
The below video is how we learned as recruits, with one twist, we did not wait to evaluate for the head shot, we simply did three shots, the double tap to the chest, and one to the head. This was done day and night, rain or shine, heat or cold or standing in 6" of water at the range during a thunder/lightning storm. I got heat stroke during training, so they dragged me into the office to cool off, then back out and more "failure drill". I trained with a H&K USP 45 and carried a Glock 17 9mm. Mags were 17 rounds plus 2 so first go was 20 rounds including the one in the chamber, 19 for each additional magazine and I carried 2 extra, so 58 rounds total. I never felt under-gunned with the Glock 
[video=youtube;QhJUnmGLClg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QhJUnmGLClg[/video]
[video=youtube;QhJUnmGLClg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QhJUnmGLClg[/video]
To all the guy's that said shot placement is everything....
Thats what I have heard as well. Talked to a guy in a "private security firm" who carried what he wanted and he chose a 9mm with standard capacity mags over a .40 or a .45. Why? He said if a target is at a slightly longer distance ie 15-40 yds he said he can place 15 rds on target faster and more accurately than with any other calibre. Any hits on target are better than none he said.
Thats what I have heard as well. Talked to a guy in a "private security firm" who carried what he wanted and he chose a 9mm with standard capacity mags over a .40 or a .45. Why? He said if a target is at a slightly longer distance ie 15-40 yds he said he can place 15 rds on target faster and more accurately than with any other calibre. Any hits on target are better than none he said.
An often quoted statistic which bears a considerable amount of truth for civilian and police combat encounters in my observations and experience..."3-5 rounds, in 3-5 seconds, at 3-5 yards". High capacity is nice but top notch terminal performance for each round is critical. For various reasons, you may not get many into your target, so choose your projectile carefully.
Software is more important than hardware and at bad breath distance, good shot placement isn't guaranteed. PCP and bath salts have caused many cops to switch away from 9mm if they could under Dept. policy.
If one shoots a 9mm more accurately with the right ammo than they do with a .40 or .45., the 9mm is what they should carry. Just remember at close up arms length, it may not stop the threat as quickly with poor placement. Many women agents and women officers aren't comfortable with bigger calibers and don't shoot them well and are problematic during qualification time as are some men.
The previous FBI concept was that a bigger caliber than the 9mm was better but also wanted to keep some form of high capacity thus the 10s and .40s.
I suspect many agents don't shoot the .40 well and expense too is a factor, so with improved ammo these days coupled with being able to control a 9mm, it's their new concept.
If one shoots a 9mm more accurately with the right ammo than they do with a .40 or .45., the 9mm is what they should carry. Just remember at close up arms length, it may not stop the threat as quickly with poor placement. Many women agents and women officers aren't comfortable with bigger calibers and don't shoot them well and are problematic during qualification time as are some men.
The previous FBI concept was that a bigger caliber than the 9mm was better but also wanted to keep some form of high capacity thus the 10s and .40s.
I suspect many agents don't shoot the .40 well and expense too is a factor, so with improved ammo these days coupled with being able to control a 9mm, it's their new concept.
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GunGuy34, I am not looking to open any can of worms here, so I will just say that I fall into the crowd that would say "there is no replacement for displacement".
That's the average, some encounters are 1 round and some are upwards of ten rounds.
These days 9mm is a better round.
Performance in gelatin bears out that a good 9mm round will have near identical performance to a good .40 or .45 round.
With less recoil, allowing faster follow up shots, and more capacity. This is in terms of both expansion and penetration.
Shooters generally will shoot less recoiling pistols more accurately as well.
Performance in gelatin bears out that a good 9mm round will have near identical performance to a good .40 or .45 round.
With less recoil, allowing faster follow up shots, and more capacity. This is in terms of both expansion and penetration.
Shooters generally will shoot less recoiling pistols more accurately as well.
Skypilot you are ignoring all the scientific evidence that shows you are wrong. Have you looked at the wound studies, have you looked at the gel tests? They all show the same thing, 9mm does the exact same job as 40 and 45. There is no magical increase in stopping power when you place a 4 in the caliber, unless you start talking 44, which still needs to hit vitals to do anything.
Someone asked why the 9mm has seen this massive increase in reliability compared to other rounds, and why haven't they benefited from the same science. They have, what's happened is they've all improved, but the differences between them have narrowed. The higher velocity 9mm round uses that velocity along with modern design to open up and cause the same kind of damage that the slower, larger, rounds cause. It's simple math in the end.
Someone asked why the 9mm has seen this massive increase in reliability compared to other rounds, and why haven't they benefited from the same science. They have, what's happened is they've all improved, but the differences between them have narrowed. The higher velocity 9mm round uses that velocity along with modern design to open up and cause the same kind of damage that the slower, larger, rounds cause. It's simple math in the end.
