FBI replacing .40cal with 9mm?

yes much easier when 2100 rounds an hour is the norm on the 1050. And it's more like 47lbs of powder. And when you figure in a 3hr session my students will shoot between 250-400 rounds, with all my bull#### (Misanthropist can back this up), it's easy to run through 800-1300 rounds in a day when practicing. Oh and the mags are 10 rounders, not 15, although the first set is 10 in the mag, one in the barrel.
My annual sponsorship for ammo pays for about 60-70% of my ammo, I buy the rest, if you like I can show you the pics of last years primer boxes I think I still 20 or 30 of the 5000 round cases sitting downstairs to go to recycling.
Shooterready can probably chime in with how much fun it was with my last shipment of CamPro bullets, 30 bags of match ammo and at least 15 of practice.
I don't load 223, I either buy it or snag it from certain generous users when I go play with them. 308 I load on a single stage, usually 200 at a time. Oh, and it's Lapua brass 1000 rounds of it with 100 of the same lot for when I lose or bugger up the main supply. Down to 96 in that box now.
And I don't shoot that much compared to others I know. This last year was actually a slow year for me as I wasn't shooting IPSC for most of it. Even still 4,000 rounds a month was easy to hit.

If you seriously think that a badguy wearing armor is going to notice the difference between being hit with a 9mm and a 40 or a 45 you're dreaming. Maybe go talk to people who've been shot while wearing armor, yeah it sucks, but it doesn't knock you on your ass, it just hurts, and leaves a burn/bruise. Maybe if you were off balance. Does your gun knock you over when you shoot it? No, it doesn't does it. You can't equate hitting someone with a sledge hammer and a bullet hitting a vest. Totally different. But like I said before, don't believe me, go read Doc Roberts stuff, he is after all, the guy the FBI, LAPD, NYPD, the US Military (various special branches) and numerous international agencies, call when they are looking for ballistic wound info. His stuff is freely available on numerous forums, and he'll even take a phone call if you ask nicely. Doubt me all you want, other than my round count notes it's all anecdotal, but Gary, well he's actually an expert so I'd expect him to know what he talks about.
 
Although to most of us mortals, Slavex's numbers seem ridiculous, I can vouch for his round count.
He attends the range 3-4 times a week on a slow week. I have never seen him shoot less than 3-400 rounds just doing demos while instructing. On a serious training day it would be nothing for him to shoot 1000 or more rounds.
He is a true mooch, he has stolen thousands of rounds from me over the years:) I mean that in the nicest possible way. Taught me a ton too.

He does keep a log and if he says he shoots 100k thats what he shoots. alot of people exaggerate on the internet, not here he shoots a ton.
 
CreamySmooth said:
I am aware of the training as I deliver it, primarily on 9mm pistols. And this thinking is sound. Shoot em in the face. Its what I'd do if I was rolling around in a ground fight, but in fact did have the time and ability to raise my firearm up to a mans face without losing possesion.

A 230gr bullet at 850fps has 369 ft-lbs of energy. A 30lb sledge head moving 28fps has 366 ft-lbs of energy. More and more in todays world, performance on armour matters. And I'm not talking about the super armour you can get now with multiple ceramic plates that do indeed stop a round or 2 of .308. Common body armour worn by police these days is 8 to 12, sometimes 14 layers of Kevlar weave. As I have previously stated, I've done lots of shooting at these common armour vest panels. From my experience, the effect that a 9mm causes is not even close to a .40, .45 or 10mm, or even .357SIG. And yes, while this is not a huge concern for the common person, I take note and place it in my own experience database so that I know what happens. Similiar, I know that a .17 HMR will penetrate 5 of these 12 layer panels stacked on top of each other. (Actually, I believe it would do more but I only had 5 that day. And for my line of work, this is actually a far more relevant piece of knowledge.... but lets keep ourselves away from useful information.) So lets go back to the sledgehammer. Who here thinks a strike to the chest with sledgehammer energy levels would do nothing to an attacker? And while a 9 would still mess an attacker up, the other will do it better. My belief is that a 200 grn handload out of a 10mm at close range may kill just from shock to a standard human body. I have seen first hand the damage a sledgehammer will do to a human body... and while the area of effect the damage is spread over is different, the effect of armour is to spread that damage out over a larger area like the hammer, plates notwithstanding. This is just my thoughts and experience. I'm stuck with a 9mm, but given a chance would gladly carry a larger round. In particular because of the areas I've worked, something that is more level at 100 yards, which I practice at, would be my wish. .357 SIG and 10mm are the 2 that stand out if you do this kind of shooting. I pratice at 100 often with my 9.


Point blank with a .44? Thats not standard issue panels if he was still standing. Heck, I've used slugs on standard panels. It stops them... but I can tell you, you wouldn't make it if you were in the panels.... Points moot.

I don't know why I perpetuated this. Poor judgement I suppose.
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You've taken 2 different wound mechanisms - temporary cavity and permanent cavity and you're holding them up as equal in importance. They aren't, in fact the permanent cavity is the only reliable method of determining the success of a pistol bullet. This is the same mistake that was made in the '80's, when rounds like the 95 grain 9mm softpoint were issued.

Oh yeah, here's the video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIhyETXW1u0

Here's another one, this guy has plates - Rich Davis didn't make hard armour, it was all soft. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x59iN4KMz4
 
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Slavex said:
KevinB, we need a "like" button for posts like that.

Being good friends with a number of agency armorers, I hear first hand about issues with longevity of firearms in various calibers. 40 beats them up more than 9 does. When it comes to qualifying agencies notice a huge difference when they switch to 9mm across the board. Good shooters with 40 shoot better with 9mm. People that couldn't shoot with the 40 at all qualify with the 9mm no problem. It's a no brainer. Will 40 die out? No, unfortunately, it probably won't. Should it? In my opinion yeah it should. I'd rather see the time manufacturers spend making 40 spent on 9mm ammo production lol. Piss me off with the ammo shortages last year. I've heard that there may even be a push in BC to allow agencies to switch to 9mm without needing that elusive "Chiefs permission" to do so (which currently exists).
Other than a couple people on here who are good friends of mine I bet I probably shoot more in a month than the combined total of most of this forum. I average 60,000 of pistol a year (that's just my own loaded 9mm and doesn't include other calibers or ammo I leach off of LE buddies when we shoot), 15-20,000 round of 223/556 and a couple thousand 308 minimum. So probably around 100,000 rounds a year total. I have a better idea than most about recoil and how guns work with various rounds. So take my opinion as you may.
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In BC getting the Chief's permission to carry a firearm chambered in a caliber other than .40 S&W isn't that elusive. Our ERT team carried Beretta 92's in 9mm and all that was required was a one page form letter signed by the chief. That same agency issues firearms to undercover operators that aren't duty firearms depending on the project. Our former chief carried a SIG chambered in .380. Another ERT team carries Glocks chambered in .45 GAP.

Not a very subtle hint but the largest municipal agency in BC is looking at switching from .40 S&W to .45 ACP (Glock 21SF) in less than 5 years when the current pistols are due to be replaced (current pistol is a SIG 226R DAK). However, given the fiscal restraints we are under I doubt that will happen and I predict staying with .40 or going to 9mm. After carrying a .40 for the past 14 years I would have no issue going to a 9mm given the advancements in ammunition. If this were 14 years ago I would say no to carrying a 9mm.
 
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http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...action=display&article_id=1571&issue_id=82008

Bullets vs body armour, one cop was shot 36 times and lived to tell his tale.. wtf..
Point is, vast majority suffered minor injuries, it doesn't specify caliber, but with the numbers of people involved i'm sure there were various calibers


Also if you're fat you get less major injury when the bullet isn't rated to stop the caliber
 
Homer, as soon as you said ERT it's special circumstances. I am quite familiar with the VPD ERT guns and the old Beretta they had. I've had two and still have Swampy's. Regular officers working patrol is who I'm talking about when I mentioned the special letter.
As for permanent wound cavity, yes bigger is typically better, which is why 9mm is well liked right now, it leaves essentially the same size as a 40 or 45. But with much less recoil, more rounds and is simply easier to hold on target.
Now, switching to 45 is about the dumbest thing anyone in this country could do for an agency. It will be a massive failure if it happens.
 
Slavex said:
Homer, as soon as you said ERT it's special circumstances. I am quite familiar with the VPD ERT guns and the old Beretta they had. I've had two and still have Swampy's. Regular officers working patrol is who I'm talking about when I mentioned the special letter.
As for permanent wound cavity, yes bigger is typically better, which is why 9mm is well liked right now, it leaves essentially the same size as a 40 or 45. But with much less recoil, more rounds and is simply easier to hold on target.
Now, switching to 45 is about the dumbest thing anyone in this country could do for an agency. It will be a massive failure if it happens.
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I forgot to mention. When we had the Beretta 96D, those with small hands (usually women) were issued a single stack Beretta 9mm. I don't remember the model. I do remember they carried 7 round mags and were issued 4 mags. It doesn't matter where you are assigned. It is still the same process to get permission to carry a pistol in a caliber other than .40 S&W whether it is issued to a patrol officer, ERT, or some other specialty unit. What I am trying to say is if an agency wants to carry a caliber other than .40 S&W it does not require a change in legislation. The loophole exists.

I agree going with a .45 ACP would be a failure given the added cost of ammunition amongst other considerations. I would have no complaints going to a 9mm but think we will end up sticking with .40 S&W when we get new pistols.
 
Yes chiefs givekit, I can't remember the the single stack Beretta you guys got for the small people either. Some chiefs really don't like giving out such letters though. Then you have Delta PD ERT with their Glock 21s.
I would be amazed if VPD didn't go with either Glock or M&Ps though, but they could really go weird and get the new SIG striker fired...

Edited to add - I know VPD had Beretta Cougars for some people, small ones too.
 
Or it will go up as less mass purchases by agencies will make it more expensive to produce...
 
I have shot with many agencies on their home ranges. The BEST, by far, was the FBI basic training range at Quantico. Very good instructors, with an excellent program and state of the art equipment.

I have no idea what happens by way of training and practice after graduation.



870P said:
The FBI, like the NYPD, just doesn't seem to have much of a demanding firearms culture or really good training outside of its SWAT units and HRT.

Investigation is their bread and butter, and it makes sense for them to issue sidearms that are easiest to use.
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To echo what Rob (Slavex) said - the US Army just did a big study are part of the never ending MCP program (Modular Combat Pistol) -- now keep in mind most of the shooters where Big Army folks who have less handgun training that about anyone on the planet - however the 9mm hit rates (same types of pistols where used in 9/40 and 45) where much higher - better accuracy and faster shot to shot times (not nec just splits but target to target engagement). However the Army limited to ball ammo, believes that .45 would be a better option (the 40 guns got the worst user rating and where the slowest in target to target).

I used to be a big believer in .45ACP - mainly as 9mm bullet designs did not offer the same expansion and penetration that the .40 and .45 did -- however in the last 2-3 years, a lot of R&D has been poured into making 9mm bullets better for LE usage (barrier pen, expansion, flash reduction, and recoil management).

I don't shoot nearly as much 9mm as Rob - mainly as I am a poor man and my primary day job is not pistol work. I probably only shot around 7k of 9mm since my switch to 9mm from .45 last July.
My second day job with a gun and a badge, I am allowed to carry a personal handgun - duty gun must be 9mm/40/45 and barrel longer than 4" - I also carry a BUG.
Department Standard gun is a M&P 9mm Pro series - I carry my personal CORE - but other than my DeltaPoint - the gun is the same mechanically.
Yeah I could carry my Larry Vickers 1911 - or a bunch of other options, but I shoot the CORE faster and more accurately -- and in gel testing, my 9mm 127gr +P+ load does just about identical as my 230gr .45 or a 180gr .40 loadings.
 
KevinB said:
To echo what Rob (Slavex) said - the US Army just did a big study are part of the never ending MCP program (Modular Combat Pistol) -- now keep in mind most of the shooters where Big Army folks who have less handgun training that about anyone on the planet - however the 9mm hit rates (same types of pistols where used in 9/40 and 45) where much higher - better accuracy and faster shot to shot times (not nec just splits but target to target engagement). However the Army limited to ball ammo, believes that .45 would be a better option (the 40 guns got the worst user rating and where the slowest in target to target).

I used to be a big believer in .45ACP - mainly as 9mm bullet designs did not offer the same expansion and penetration that the .40 and .45 did -- however in the last 2-3 years, a lot of R&D has been poured into making 9mm bullets better for LE usage (barrier pen, expansion, flash reduction, and recoil management).

I don't shoot nearly as much 9mm as Rob - mainly as I am a poor man and my primary day job is not pistol work. I probably only shot around 7k of 9mm since my switch to 9mm from .45 last July.
My second day job with a gun and a badge, I am allowed to carry a personal handgun - duty gun must be 9mm/40/45 and barrel longer than 4" - I also carry a BUG.
Department Standard gun is a M&P 9mm Pro series - I carry my personal CORE - but other than my DeltaPoint - the gun is the same mechanically.
Yeah I could carry my Larry Vickers 1911 - or a bunch of other options, but I shoot the CORE faster and more accurately -- and in gel testing, my 9mm 127gr +P+ load does just about identical as my 230gr .45 or a 180gr .40 loadings.
Click to expand...

Are M&Ps rated for +P+?
 
r34skyline said:
Are M&Ps rated for +P+?
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No maker "rates" it's firearms for +P+, since there's really no SAAMI spec for +P+. You might get one pressure level from Hornady and another from Remington. Based on experience, I'd not hesitate to shoot +P+ in an M&P - mine ran through a good quantity of 9mm CF Ball ammo without issue, that stuff had crimped primers and was made in the '60's for the C2 SMG. It didn't cause any noticeable wear. Even if ammo was hot enough to cause issues, rebuilding an M&P is cheap, easy and quick.
 
If someone wanted to carry +P+ ammo I doubt they'd do enough practicing with it to wear out the gun unless they were Todd Green or something. Most people would just shoot practice ammo when at the range, and maybe the odd mag or two of the carry ammo now and then.
 
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