FBI replacing .40cal with 9mm?
- Thread starter illumined
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I bet that if most of you would actually carry a handgun for self-defense the votes and opinions expressed in this thread would be slightly different.
Indeed there is no difference between 9mm and .40 in terms of punching the paper, but bigger, heavier bullet still provides and advantage in any, real word scenario.
Question is: can you make any use of it? That's a whole new can of worms to open. Enjoy your weekend gentlemen!
Indeed there is no difference between 9mm and .40 in terms of punching the paper, but bigger, heavier bullet still provides and advantage in any, real word scenario.
Question is: can you make any use of it? That's a whole new can of worms to open. Enjoy your weekend gentlemen!
No, bigger bullets are not better people. How many of have actually read all the supporting evidence in the link provided to pistol-forum.com? Doctor Gary Roberts is a world renowned subject matter expert on wound ballistics, and bullet performance. He is also recognized as an SME on pistols and their performance. His recommendations which are used by pretty much every major and minor police force in the USA is 9mm. Why is that so hard to understand?
Unless you are firing pistols like a 10mm or 50AE both loaded to ridiculous power levels, which will severely limit your ability to shoot accurately and fast, you will not see any benefit. This has been prov. Time and time and time again. Same 40 beating up guns quicker than 9mm. It's fact, proven by agency records.
Unless you are firing pistols like a 10mm or 50AE both loaded to ridiculous power levels, which will severely limit your ability to shoot accurately and fast, you will not see any benefit. This has been prov. Time and time and time again. Same 40 beating up guns quicker than 9mm. It's fact, proven by agency records.
In my experience, putting a thing in a pouch on your belt, no matter how long you do it for, does not in and of itself teach you anything about the technical details of that thing.
I remember this one job I had where the most critical piece of equipment by far was the radio (probably not unlike most police).
I knew absolutely nothing about that radio other than the basics of how to operate it, even though everyone there depended on it to not get killed, and we used them every few minutes.
I'm going to guess the average cop knows about as much about their guns as they do their radios.
You know who knows a lot about radios? People who work in the radio business and spend their lives working on radios, fixing radios, and teaching others to operate radios. People who study signals transmission and advise military organizations on what radios to use, or who design radios for military use or major commercial applications. Maybe a huge dispatch place might have their own radio guy...he'd know quite a bit about the use and repair of radios. Or their procurements guy might potentially have looked in to a lot of research on which radios to buy (or he might not).
People who work at a job where they get a radio know a often know a couple of things. They sometimes know if a particular radio works well or poorly, although they usually haven't used very many because they just take what they're issued, and they sometimes know if they hold up well in the field, although usually they don't use them enough to know very well. A particularly interested one might have made mental notes about the situations in which they work well or poorly. But 99% of the radio users don't know a thing about them. They just press the button on the side and talk.
End-user knowledge is something...but not the only thing.
I remember this one job I had where the most critical piece of equipment by far was the radio (probably not unlike most police).
I knew absolutely nothing about that radio other than the basics of how to operate it, even though everyone there depended on it to not get killed, and we used them every few minutes.
I'm going to guess the average cop knows about as much about their guns as they do their radios.
You know who knows a lot about radios? People who work in the radio business and spend their lives working on radios, fixing radios, and teaching others to operate radios. People who study signals transmission and advise military organizations on what radios to use, or who design radios for military use or major commercial applications. Maybe a huge dispatch place might have their own radio guy...he'd know quite a bit about the use and repair of radios. Or their procurements guy might potentially have looked in to a lot of research on which radios to buy (or he might not).
People who work at a job where they get a radio know a often know a couple of things. They sometimes know if a particular radio works well or poorly, although they usually haven't used very many because they just take what they're issued, and they sometimes know if they hold up well in the field, although usually they don't use them enough to know very well. A particularly interested one might have made mental notes about the situations in which they work well or poorly. But 99% of the radio users don't know a thing about them. They just press the button on the side and talk.
End-user knowledge is something...but not the only thing.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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^^The vast majority of people don't want to read, or learn, or improve.
All the information has been provided in your links.
Yet people sill refuse to read it, learn it, and adapt their opinions.
All the information has been provided in your links.
Yet people sill refuse to read it, learn it, and adapt their opinions.
If they are, it's about money and little else. Except maybe the size of the pistols and a bit of the felt recoil for small statured Feds.
The legality is irrelevant. Stateside for one and U.S. Federal coppers for another. Mind you, I wouldn't take what you see posted on an internet forum as 'gospel' for what foreign government agency is doing.
The legality is irrelevant. Stateside for one and U.S. Federal coppers for another. Mind you, I wouldn't take what you see posted on an internet forum as 'gospel' for what foreign government agency is doing.
I cant believe this thread is still alive .
any way don't care what the fbi does .
I buy my guns ( and calibres ) for target shooting .
For paper punching, steel plates, poppers and gongs, or bowling pins, all of witch 45 acp is King.
45 acp will punch pins clear off the table, and smash steel over with authority .
I have 3 9MMs and like em alot, probable my favorite cal to shoot.
But ther not the best for pins or swinging steel .
40 Cal for me gives the ability to shoot heavier bullets in a 9mm size gun with a full 10 round count .
I like guns period . and like a variety .
The fbi's reasons for going to 9mm have no relivance to what we use our pistols for here in Canada ....
any way don't care what the fbi does .
I buy my guns ( and calibres ) for target shooting .
For paper punching, steel plates, poppers and gongs, or bowling pins, all of witch 45 acp is King.
45 acp will punch pins clear off the table, and smash steel over with authority .
I have 3 9MMs and like em alot, probable my favorite cal to shoot.
But ther not the best for pins or swinging steel .
40 Cal for me gives the ability to shoot heavier bullets in a 9mm size gun with a full 10 round count .
I like guns period . and like a variety .
The fbi's reasons for going to 9mm have no relivance to what we use our pistols for here in Canada ....
.
How do you figure .
I agree there is more felt recoil with the 40 . but if you look at the hodgdon reloading data they are almost exact Max PSI .
In fact, even if you shoot the biggest 147GR 9 mm, loaded to max with long shot is 33.000 psi, and will give you 1000 FPS
.compaired with 40 S&W
a 200 GR 40 loaded to max with the same powder is actually less, at 32.500 psi and will give you 950 fps
17 rounds vs 15 rounds? Will the extra two rounds per mag make a difference? Debatable... I'm issued a .40, have shot tens of thousands of rounds through the various pistols that have passed through my holster. Haven't noticed the "hard on the gun" issue, but that is just me. I have used 9mm for duty and as I have shot tens of thousands of rounds through that pistol too, I can tell you that for me (and only for me), at the time that I pull the trigger I notice absolutely no difference between the two. I pull the trigger the pistol goes bang and because I PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE the rounds go where I want, regardless of the size of the round. Moral of the story: Pick a calibre that floats your boat and then get very, very good at chucking that lead downrange.
I have had exactly the same experience and drawn the same conclusions as you.
Carried 9mm in uk. 40 here. Shot until my thumb bled with loading mags.
Both guns lasted and lasted with no issues.
Incidentally most uk police use the g17 but only load 15 rounds to save the mags when they are often loaded onto closed slides and locked in the safe in the car for long periods of time. (We had extra pistols and carbines in the car)
So for consistency and to give the mags a little room we only used 15 rounds all the time.
Loading 17 into a g17 mag is very very tight. And after a couple hours solid shooting your thumbs can't load anymore.
KevinB, we need a "like" button for posts like that.
Being good friends with a number of agency armorers, I hear first hand about issues with longevity of firearms in various calibers. 40 beats them up more than 9 does. When it comes to qualifying agencies notice a huge difference when they switch to 9mm across the board. Good shooters with 40 shoot better with 9mm. People that couldn't shoot with the 40 at all qualify with the 9mm no problem. It's a no brainer. Will 40 die out? No, unfortunately, it probably won't. Should it? In my opinion yeah it should. I'd rather see the time manufacturers spend making 40 spent on 9mm ammo production lol. Piss me off with the ammo shortages last year. I've heard that there may even be a push in BC to allow agencies to switch to 9mm without needing that elusive "Chiefs permission" to do so (which currently exists).
Other than a couple people on here who are good friends of mine I bet I probably shoot more in a month than the combined total of most of this forum. I average 60,000 of pistol a year (that's just my own loaded 9mm and doesn't include other calibers or ammo I leach off of LE buddies when we shoot), 15-20,000 round of 223/556 and a couple thousand 308 minimum. So probably around 100,000 rounds a year total. I have a better idea than most about recoil and how guns work with various rounds. So take my opinion as you may.
Being good friends with a number of agency armorers, I hear first hand about issues with longevity of firearms in various calibers. 40 beats them up more than 9 does. When it comes to qualifying agencies notice a huge difference when they switch to 9mm across the board. Good shooters with 40 shoot better with 9mm. People that couldn't shoot with the 40 at all qualify with the 9mm no problem. It's a no brainer. Will 40 die out? No, unfortunately, it probably won't. Should it? In my opinion yeah it should. I'd rather see the time manufacturers spend making 40 spent on 9mm ammo production lol. Piss me off with the ammo shortages last year. I've heard that there may even be a push in BC to allow agencies to switch to 9mm without needing that elusive "Chiefs permission" to do so (which currently exists).
Other than a couple people on here who are good friends of mine I bet I probably shoot more in a month than the combined total of most of this forum. I average 60,000 of pistol a year (that's just my own loaded 9mm and doesn't include other calibers or ammo I leach off of LE buddies when we shoot), 15-20,000 round of 223/556 and a couple thousand 308 minimum. So probably around 100,000 rounds a year total. I have a better idea than most about recoil and how guns work with various rounds. So take my opinion as you may.
100,000 rounds per year???? I WISH! 
As every agencies anecdotal experiences differ and I can see different agencies having different pistol issues come and go. If I may add my own anecdotal (and totally non-scientific) experience... (Oh, I hate how this is about to sound...) As a firearms trainer, I take exception with the assertion that problem shooters who go from .40 to 9mm all of a sudden start to pass their qualifications. (Though I fully admit to not searching for any related data.) Having worked extensively with problem shooters, any issues that are present with .40 will be there with 9mm. This is just my 2 cents from my meager experiences.
...and if you get the chance to shoot tens of thousands of rounds per year of anything, it is my firm belief that any difference in performance by calibre will be so close that it won't really matter which you use.
As every agencies anecdotal experiences differ and I can see different agencies having different pistol issues come and go. If I may add my own anecdotal (and totally non-scientific) experience... (Oh, I hate how this is about to sound...) As a firearms trainer, I take exception with the assertion that problem shooters who go from .40 to 9mm all of a sudden start to pass their qualifications. (Though I fully admit to not searching for any related data.) Having worked extensively with problem shooters, any issues that are present with .40 will be there with 9mm. This is just my 2 cents from my meager experiences.
...and if you get the chance to shoot tens of thousands of rounds per year of anything, it is my firm belief that any difference in performance by calibre will be so close that it won't really matter which you use.
Exactly that. Funny how real experience shows that the logic behind some of the internet statements is lacking.
Not bragging, I get paid to shoot, common knowledge on here I also get my guns for free, again, common knowledge. I am also one of the busiest instructors in the country and work regularly with municipal and federal agencies on firearms training. Again, you can ask around if you like. I am also one of the top handgun shooters in the country and have traveled the planet competing. Feel free to ask guys like Misanthropist,Tritium, KevinB, WickedPolice, Greentips, Suputin, TDC and so on, what my experience is and how it's relevant to this topic. Or go cry in your sour milk as many of you seem to be doing. Physics and actual time behind a gun will tell you a lot.
Regarding the qualifications with 40 vs 9mm, don't take my word for it, read the FBI report on it. It's documented fact. And anyone that has shot a G17 and a G22 back to back can tell the difference in how the gun handles. The 9mm is easier to shoot, easier to shoot for extended periods and as a result more people do better on that platform than the .40. While for many dedicated shooters the .40 can be controlled and they do fine with it, dedicated shooters doesn't define the vast majority of LE users.
As for Poochy's last line about the difference in performance by caliber being so close it wouldn't matter, wrong. It's because some of us shoot a lot that we can determine the difference in how these guns and ammo run. To the layman shooter they may never notice. To an expert shooter who regularly shoots multiple guns in multiple calibers, sees others doing the same, performance difference stand out.
Regarding the qualifications with 40 vs 9mm, don't take my word for it, read the FBI report on it. It's documented fact. And anyone that has shot a G17 and a G22 back to back can tell the difference in how the gun handles. The 9mm is easier to shoot, easier to shoot for extended periods and as a result more people do better on that platform than the .40. While for many dedicated shooters the .40 can be controlled and they do fine with it, dedicated shooters doesn't define the vast majority of LE users.
As for Poochy's last line about the difference in performance by caliber being so close it wouldn't matter, wrong. It's because some of us shoot a lot that we can determine the difference in how these guns and ammo run. To the layman shooter they may never notice. To an expert shooter who regularly shoots multiple guns in multiple calibers, sees others doing the same, performance difference stand out.
CreamySmooth
CGN frequent flyer
I am aware of the training as I deliver it, primarily on 9mm pistols. And this thinking is sound. Shoot em in the face. Its what I'd do if I was rolling around in a ground fight, but in fact did have the time and ability to raise my firearm up to a mans face without losing possesion.
A 230gr bullet at 850fps has 369 ft-lbs of energy. A 30lb sledge head moving 28fps has 366 ft-lbs of energy. More and more in todays world, performance on armour matters. And I'm not talking about the super armour you can get now with multiple ceramic plates that do indeed stop a round or 2 of .308. Common body armour worn by police these days is 8 to 12, sometimes 14 layers of Kevlar weave. As I have previously stated, I've done lots of shooting at these common armour vest panels. From my experience, the effect that a 9mm causes is not even close to a .40, .45 or 10mm, or even .357SIG. And yes, while this is not a huge concern for the common person, I take note and place it in my own experience database so that I know what happens. Similiar, I know that a .17 HMR will penetrate 5 of these 12 layer panels stacked on top of each other. (Actually, I believe it would do more but I only had 5 that day. And for my line of work, this is actually a far more relevant piece of knowledge.... but lets keep ourselves away from useful information.) So lets go back to the sledgehammer. Who here thinks a strike to the chest with sledgehammer energy levels would do nothing to an attacker? And while a 9 would still mess an attacker up, the other will do it better. My belief is that a 200 grn handload out of a 10mm at close range may kill just from shock to a standard human body. I have seen first hand the damage a sledgehammer will do to a human body... and while the area of effect the damage is spread over is different, the effect of armour is to spread that damage out over a larger area like the hammer, plates notwithstanding. This is just my thoughts and experience. I'm stuck with a 9mm, but given a chance would gladly carry a larger round. In particular because of the areas I've worked, something that is more level at 100 yards, which I practice at, would be my wish. .357 SIG and 10mm are the 2 that stand out if you do this kind of shooting. I pratice at 100 often with my 9.
Point blank with a .44? Thats not standard issue panels if he was still standing. Heck, I've used slugs on standard panels. It stops them... but I can tell you, you wouldn't make it if you were in the panels.... Points moot.
I don't know why I perpetuated this. Poor judgement I suppose.
CreamySmooth
CGN frequent flyer
And I can't help myself Slavex... I had to run some numbers here on your round count.... Entertainment value and all!!!
@ 60,000 rounds, divided by 15 rounds a magazine... thats 4,000 full magazines of ammunition!!! At 45 seconds to load a single mag, you've used up 180,000 seconds of your life loading! Or 3,000 minutes! Or 50 hours! Or 2.08 Days of loading! You must have very caloused thumbs! Or a trunk monkey to load for you??? You must wear out Maglulas!! HAR! And you had to load 60,000 rounds! Holy crap!! I can load about 500 rounds an hour on my press, but it's just a Lee Loadmaster... you can probably go faster, but that works out to 120 hours, or 5 days of straight loading! No prep involved! And bullets! The cheapest lead heads I can find are 500 for 55 bucks. That's 120 bags of bullets! Or 6,600 bucks! Powder is less impressive for pistol, as you'll get 1200 or so out of a pound for 9mm. Still, at 30 bucks a pound... 1500 bucks. That's still 30 pounds. Slavex... yer holding out on us for powder supply.... Shame!!!! I don'
t want to think about cost of brass, projectiles and powder for those .223 and .308 rounds. I have a hard enough time with the few thousand rifle rounds I load a year! that includes filling Lapua brass so that is expensive on my part... but I maybe shoot 300 or 400 a year!
The numbers are blowing. Me. Away.
I wish!!!
@ 60,000 rounds, divided by 15 rounds a magazine... thats 4,000 full magazines of ammunition!!! At 45 seconds to load a single mag, you've used up 180,000 seconds of your life loading! Or 3,000 minutes! Or 50 hours! Or 2.08 Days of loading! You must have very caloused thumbs! Or a trunk monkey to load for you??? You must wear out Maglulas!! HAR! And you had to load 60,000 rounds! Holy crap!! I can load about 500 rounds an hour on my press, but it's just a Lee Loadmaster... you can probably go faster, but that works out to 120 hours, or 5 days of straight loading! No prep involved! And bullets! The cheapest lead heads I can find are 500 for 55 bucks. That's 120 bags of bullets! Or 6,600 bucks! Powder is less impressive for pistol, as you'll get 1200 or so out of a pound for 9mm. Still, at 30 bucks a pound... 1500 bucks. That's still 30 pounds. Slavex... yer holding out on us for powder supply.... Shame!!!! I don'
t want to think about cost of brass, projectiles and powder for those .223 and .308 rounds. I have a hard enough time with the few thousand rifle rounds I load a year! that includes filling Lapua brass so that is expensive on my part... but I maybe shoot 300 or 400 a year!
The numbers are blowing. Me. Away.
I wish!!!
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