Rifle for Alberta and Africa??

[jaycee]

That is what I am saying, that there is no discernable difference on game. Yes you have taken a lot of animals, but 7 bull elk with the 340 and 4 different bullets is a small sample.

No, what I said is that there is no discernable difference on game between the various 300 magnums and the 338 Winchester magnum. I have seen a difference with the 340 though. You really need to read the whole post - I'm not ONLY talking about the animals that I've personally taken, I'm also talking about the far greater number that I've seen taken with these calibers. To the last post add another 8-10 bull elk and 3-4 bull moose off the top of my head that I've seen hit by other shooters with the 340, and yeah, there is a difference. Have you tried all these calibers yourself, or are you just hypothesizing?

Barnes' top load is with RL22, with that powder Alliant says there is 128 fps between the 338 and the 340, not enough to argue about.

You really need to be more articulate my friend, and hopefully you're not just cherry picking data to support your posts - which Barnes manual number? Because the numbers you're quoting certainly aren't from the #4 manual I'm looking at right now, where the 340 beats the 338 with EVERY bullet weight by more than 128 fps - 185 gr 154 fps; 210 gr 181 fps; 225 218 fps; 250 gr 228 fps.

Do you also maintain that there is no discernable difference on game between a 30-06 and a 300 magnum?

As to data being conservative, circa 1955, Weatherby was likely the only source of data and he says "OVER 55,000 PSI IS NOT CONSIDERED SAFE", that is from Weatherby when he was the source of rifles (with 3/4" freeborn used as much for long bullets), ammo, and data (pressure tested).

Was anyone arguing Weatherby data from 1955. Do you think they're still using the same pressure testing data now? Stop watch, copper crusher, trace, etc?

My last elk (a cow) was taken with the 32 Special, it worked just fine.

I've seen an elk shot cleanly with a 220 Swift - does that mean that it's an adequate cartridge? I'm happy for you that you collected your elk with a 32 Special. Hopefully you waited for a good shot angle. I, on the other hand, don't live in elk country any more, and as such have to travel far distances to partake in that activity. I want a cartridge that can cleanly take an animal from any angle which I may be presented with - if you only have 8 or 10 days to play with and pass up an animal because it doesn't give you a perfect shot for a 32 Special, you risk a very likely chance of going home with an uncut tag.

How many elk/moose/deer/bear/etc have you shot with a 32 Special? What ranges? What angles? Chronographed? Jacketed bullets, or lead?

 

[c-fbmi]

Jaycee........you're wasting your time..........those of us who have ACTUALLY used and loaded for the 340 know that the difference is almost night and day..........it's the difference between a rather ho-hum cartridge and a true long range killing machine. As I stated before the manuals do not do any Wby cartridges any favors and seem almost to intentionally massively under load them.........as one poster said one manual actually shows the 338 as faster with the same bullet than the 340............absolute garbage !!! I have regularly been able to safely better most manuals with all my Wby cartridges by 100 fps and more.

 

[martinbns]

I have friends in South Africa and have been there twice but only hunted there on my last trip ( took a nice Impala). The most popular cals are 223, 308, 30-06 and 300 win mag. From what they tell me, I take it that when people show up to hunt with there big over kill magnums ( mostly the Americans) that they are the butt of many jokes. Unless you are after dangerous game then a 308 or 30-06 are best suited for the job

I'll tell you something, when we first arrived at our hunting spot, our PH took us over to a small range to make sure "our rifles were still on".

He watched us handle our rifles like a Hawk, first to see if we could shoot and second to see if we handled them safely. We both made decent shots in the first two days and our PH went on and on about how often he has people who can't shoot.

They expect us not to be able to shoot and are pleasantly surprised to find out we can.

He gave me a very Afrikaan Jah when I put two touching at 100 from my 300 and frowned a bit when I had to adjust the scope because it was 1.5 inches left then was OK when I put the third perfectly 2 inches high at 100 yards. When my son got up he was very attentive, his first shot was in the circle, but not perfect. I could tell he was concerned, then Brendan concentrated a bit better and put his next two dead centre 2 inches high.

 

[MiG25]

What are the barrel lengths in the #4 manual? Are the twists the same? Alliant has 128 fps with 250 grain bullets, with the same barrel length and twist.

Weatherby in 1955 is relevant because they are his rifles and his cartridges, he says over 55000 psi is not safe in his rifles, that is why data is "conservative".

I believe the effect of the 340 over the 338 is on the shooter. I also believe there is a lot of wishful thinking ballistically, all else being equal (which it seldom is). I also don't believe that 100 fps makes any difference on an animal.

 

[MiG25]

For $40 Roy Weatherby would convert your M1917 or Winchester 54 to 300 Wby, for $67.50 your 1903 Springfield with a SN over 800,000 could be a 257 or 270 Wby, the same for your mauser made prior to 1944. This is why the Weatherby cartridges are "held back" in reloading manuals.

 

[jaycee]

What are the barrel lengths in the #4 manual? Are the twists the same? Alliant has 128 fps with 250 grain bullets, with the same barrel length and twist.

As a matter-of-fact, yes they are. Same 24" barrel, same 1:10" twist. Are you satisfied now? Something tells me the answer is likely "No". Do yourself a favour friend, and get some more reloading manuals - don't place all your eggs in one basket.

Weatherby in 1955 is relevant because they are his rifles and his cartridges, he says over 55000 psi is not safe in his rifles, that is why data is "conservative".

Actually, I don't think Weatherby's data from 1955 is all that relevant - I don't think I've shot any factory ammo that is loaded hotter than Weatherby, and would be highly surprised if it actually falls 55000 psi and under.

I believe the effect of the 340 over the 338 is on the shooter. I also believe there is a lot of wishful thinking ballistically, all else being equal (which it seldom is). I also don't believe that 100 fps makes any difference on an animal.

Is that belief based on having fired all these cartridges, or is it actually just a baseless "belief"? Have you actually read any of the other posts? It appears not, because you seem to keep clinging to this ever more downward spiraling number - just a couple posts ago, it was a difference of 128 fps. Now it's 100 fps. What's it going to be next, 75 fps?
I agree that 100 fps doesn't make much of a difference, in my experience (not belief), but like many of us have been saying from the start, and you seem to keep ignoring, 200-300 fps does make a difference, again, in my EXPERIENCE.

 

[jaycee]

For $40 Roy Weatherby would convert your M1917 or Winchester 54 to 300 Wby, for $67.50 your 1903 Springfield with a SN over 800,000 could be a 257 or 270 Wby, the same for your mauser made prior to 1944. This is why the Weatherby cartridges are "held back" in reloading manuals.

Ah, so you actually agree that Weatherby reloading data is held back.

Anyway MiG25, I think I am done wasting my breath. You have asked a LOT of questions, and I and others have tried to explain them in great detail. You apparently selectively read those posts, and ignore all questions posed to you. Why are you so hesitant to reply to questions directed at you? I can only surmise why. Good night.

 

[jaycee]

Jaycee........you're wasting your time..........those of us who have ACTUALLY used and loaded for the 340 know that the difference is almost night and day..........it's the difference between a rather ho-hum cartridge and a true long range killing machine. As I stated before the manuals do not do any Wby cartridges any favors and seem almost to intentionally massively under load them.........as one poster said one manual actually shows the 338 as faster with the same bullet than the 340............absolute garbage !!! I have regularly been able to safely better most manuals with all my Wby cartridges by 100 fps and more.

I hear you c-fbmi. It's that same old arguing on the internet/special olympics thing, and I think I'm done on this thread.

 

[Boomer]

For $40 Roy Weatherby would convert your M1917 or Winchester 54 to 300 Wby, for $67.50 your 1903 Springfield with a SN over 800,000 could be a 257 or 270 Wby, the same for your mauser made prior to 1944. This is why the Weatherby cartridges are "held back" in reloading manuals.

I doubt it, in the '40s, '50s, and '60s Weatherby propriety ammunition was loaded hot. The reason manuals down load the Weatherby cartridges are two fold, the first is the same reason the down load everything else, either they figure out the loads on a computer program without ever firing the cartridge (check out Hornady's load data for the .375 Ultra) and get it wrong, or the bean counters worry about liability issues associated with getting it right. Probably the biggest reason though is because rifles chambered for Weatherby cartridges are no long free-bored, and produce higher pressure with any given load than the free-bored chambers. The loading manuals responded with conservative data. Loading manuals are guidelines only, you might observe pressure signs before they did (assuming they actually test fired the loads they recommend), or well after. All rifles are individuals and SAMMI is a measure of tolerances not absolutes.

 

[MiG25]

Ah, so you actually agree that Weatherby reloading data is held back.

Anyway MiG25, I think I am done wasting my breath. You have asked a LOT of questions, and I and others have tried to explain them in great detail. You apparently selectively read those posts, and ignore all questions posed to you. Why are you so hesitant to reply to questions directed at you? I can only surmise why. Good night.

I'll take the last word them. I know that adding 200 fps to a 250 grain bullet increases recoil noticeably. I also know that a cartridges potential is based on case capacity and that it is fantasy to think, that at equal pressure and equal barrel lengths, brass with the same internal characteristics, etc, that the 340 outruns the 338 by 300 fps.

 

[c-fbmi]

I'll take the last word them. I know that adding 200 fps to a 250 grain bullet increases recoil noticeably. I also know that a cartridges potential is based on case capacity and that it is fantasy to think, that at equal pressure and equal barrel lengths, brass with the same internal characteristics, etc, that the 340 outruns the 338 by 300 fps.

This is where you are failing to understand the difference between the Wby line up and standard shouldered cartridges, it's not just about pressure and internal capacity but how efficiently that pressure can be exerted against the base of the bullet and funneled down the significantly smaller bore without unduly increasing pressure.
My previous post saying I could not get 2800 fps from a 338 and keep primers tight was from 3 different 338s all with 24" barrels and the 3090 fps from my 340 was from a 26" barrel, I never said 300 fps from same barrel lengths. Old Roy knew something when he radiused his shoulders on his cartridges and I have proven that with a 7mm experiment I did many years back.

 

[bearkilr]

I'll take the last word them. I know that adding 200 fps to a 250 grain bullet increases recoil noticeably. I also know that a cartridges potential is based on case capacity and that it is fantasy to think, that at equal pressure and equal barrel lengths, brass with the same internal characteristics, etc, that the 340 outruns the 338 by 300 fps.

It really doesn't matter, the fact is that the 340 Wby can exceed velocities of the 338WM with the same bullets. The 378 Wby can exceed velocities of the 375 H&H with the same bullets as well, that doesn't make it better. With some guys, velocity trumps everything. I've personally never cared for any Weatherby chambering other than the 257. Heavy actions and generally not known for their accuracy.

 

[c-fbmi]

It really doesn't matter, the fact is that the 340 Wby can exceed velocities of the 338WM with the same bullets. The 378 Wby can exceed velocities of the 375 H&H with the same bullets as well, that doesn't make it better. With some guys, velocity trumps everything. I've personally never cared for any Weatherby chambering other than the 257. Heavy actions and generally not known for their accuracy.

That's quite odd, BK......my factory 300 Wby Rem 700 doesn't seem to weigh any more than my other long action 700s, the same goes for my Rem 700 257 Wby. The 340 Win supergrade is a tad heavier than the 700s, oh ya and they all shoot 3/4 moa and better. These generalizations just aren't meshing with my experience at all, even my old Mark V 340, which I assume you are referring to, would shoot little 3 leaf clovers with 250 Parts when I did my part at the bench.
Again I suspect you haven't worked with Wby cartridges or rifles very much, would that be a fair generalization BK?

 

[MiG25]

Weatherbys's cartridges are good, but they're not magic. The freebore is a way of effectively increasing case capacity in the time it takes between breaking the neck tension and the bullet hitting the lands. This would be like loading a reduced charge in a larger case, it reduces pressure which would reduce velocity, weather it is of value is debatable. Even Roy Weatherby indicates it is useful for seating long heavy bullets which pretty much would nullify the effect. The venturi shoulder is a gimmick. Early on the only shoulder Roy Weatherby touted as doing anything was the 30 degree shoulder on the 220 Weatherby Rocket.

 

[jaycee]

Weatherbys's cartridges are good, but they're not magic. The freebore is a way of effectively increasing case capacity in the time it takes between breaking the neck tension and the bullet hitting the lands. This would be like loading a reduced charge in a larger case, it reduces pressure which would reduce velocity, weather it is of value is debatable. Even Roy Weatherby indicates it is useful for seating long heavy bullets which pretty much would nullify the effect. The venturi shoulder is a gimmick. Early on the only shoulder Roy Weatherby touted as doing anything was the 30 degree shoulder on the 220 Weatherby Rocket.

I don't think anyone has said that Weatherby cartridges are magic? And PLEASE as has repeatedly been asked in the past, detail YOUR experience with any 300 Mag/338 Win/340 Wby - you seem quick to call anyone else's experience into question - what is yours?

 

[track]

That's quite odd, BK......my factory 300 Wby Rem 700 doesn't seem to weigh any more than my other long action 700s, the same goes for my Rem 700 257 Wby. The 340 Win supergrade is a tad heavier than the 700s, oh ya and they all shoot 3/4 moa and better. These generalizations just aren't meshing with my experience at all, even my old Mark V 340, which I assume you are referring to, would shoot little 3 leaf clovers with 250 Parts when I did my part at the bench.
Again I suspect you haven't worked with Wby cartridges or rifles very much, would that be a fair generalization BK?

I think BK was referring to the heavy Mark V actions.

 

[MiG25]

I don't think anyone has said that Weatherby cartridges are magic? And PLEASE as has repeatedly been asked in the past, detail YOUR experience with any 300 Mag/338 Win/340 Wby - you seem quick to call anyone else's experience into question - what is yours?

Is what I wrote false?

 

[hoytcanon]

IME the strongest opinions come from those with the least experience...

 

[track]

It really doesn't matter, the fact is that the 340 Wby can exceed velocities of the 338WM with the same bullets. The 378 Wby can exceed velocities of the 375 H&H with the same bullets as well, that doesn't make it better. With some guys, velocity trumps everything. I've personally never cared for any Weatherby chambering other than the 257. Heavy actions and generally not known for their accuracy.

How many Mark V Weatherby's have your owned to conclude your premises?

 

[jaycee]

Is what I wrote false?

Unless I missed something, you seem to call everyone else's experience into question, yet provide nothing more than an example of one cow elk taken with a 32 Special. What does this have to do with a conversation on 300 magnums and 338 Winchester Magnum (and a little side-track onto the 340 Wby)? Have you shot any 300 mag/338Win/340 Wby? Have you ever taken any game with any of them? With each of them? Enough that you can make some comparisons? Or are you simply quoting what you have read? And there's nothing wrong with reading either, just so we're on the same page, afterall, reading is where all education starts. But after the reading, the real education starts in the lab, whether it's a chem lab or the outdoors.