Tavor: Time To **** Or Get Off The Pot!
- Thread starter One Lung Wonder
- Start date
I think TV Presspass is into Multi-cam...
It wasn't meant as a slight, nor am I calling him a liar.
'Hits what I'm aiming at' could mean a 12" metal gong at 100m - ymmv, as does mine.
I had bad luck with the one I had - although I'd love to own another, there is no way I'd shell out the cash if my original one was typical of the design (which I'm inclined to believe it was based off the groups I've seen in person and the ones posted by owners).
TV-PressPass
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Mountains, Alberta
Its an eight inch gong thank you very much
I find it funny that everyone starts with the firearm and the ammos' capability.
Why doesn't anyone start off with, "My abbility is a ### moa group"?
A good example is on the weekend I brought out a Type 97 for some dozen friends to try out.
Their abilities ranged from sub moa shooters to side of a barn type shooters.
Shooting the same rifle and same ammo, it just pointed out the obvious.
People have varying abilities. The great shooters had excellent groups, the poor shooters had less stellar groups, with a few odd surprises in between.
I suppose what I am asking is, are your shooting abilities within your hoped for moa before you expect as much out o the firearm and ammo combo?
No flaming going on here at all.
If you want to improve your shooting, go out and shoot more.
A rare firearm improves a persons skills,,, but practice and lots of ammo does wonders.
In the long run, did you have fun and did you bring others into our beloved past time?
I did last Sunday.
You are right but in my mind anyone who comes on here complaining about accuracy or even simply claiming the rifle is only capable of xMOA had better be shooting off of a good rest.
If you are standing shooting offhand that is how well you can shoot, if you are shooting off well placed bags or a good rest then you are showing what the rifle is capable of.
I had assumed that anyone on here posting that their rifle is only capable of xMOA was shooting off a good solid rest, if any of you who posted are not shooting supported please clarify as you are really giving the rifle a bad reputation. I don't expect the Tavor to shoot great groups but it should be 2-3 MOA once you find which ammo it likes.
This is a battle rifle not a sniper rifle, just because it costs close to anyone$3000 doesn't mean it should be shooting 1 inch at 100. Cost has nothing to do with accuracy. Accuracy has everything to do with design and the quality of the barrel and the Tavor was not designed to be a DMR. Accept it and enjoy it for what it is, not what it isn't.
Its an eight inch gong thank you very much
Don't worry about his comments. He got rid of his because he couldn't hit an 8" gong. Sounds like operator error to me.
Guys i have to say i love my tavor but i'm only an 7 to 8 moa shot with it on 55 grain ae wife is a 6 moa shot.
On 55 grain zombie or vmax im a 6 moa shot, wife is a 4 moa shot.
Maybe the new trigger will help bring me to 4 moa and my wife to 2 moa., i sure hope so.
I agree it has to do with shooting ability but my wife is a great shot and well shes not so great with the tavor... So its not all about the shooter, some of it is the rifle.
And yes ive found the zombie or vmax ammo to be the best in the tavor so far. I think it had to do with the fps of 3250, which is very close to nato 5.56, 3100 fps with 62 grain, i think the 150 fps more make up for the 7 grain less energy wise, which is what the tavor was designed for.
I think it brings it close to 85 percent of the nato round energy wise unless my physics are off, its a bit late.
On 55 grain zombie or vmax im a 6 moa shot, wife is a 4 moa shot.
Maybe the new trigger will help bring me to 4 moa and my wife to 2 moa., i sure hope so.
I agree it has to do with shooting ability but my wife is a great shot and well shes not so great with the tavor... So its not all about the shooter, some of it is the rifle.
And yes ive found the zombie or vmax ammo to be the best in the tavor so far. I think it had to do with the fps of 3250, which is very close to nato 5.56, 3100 fps with 62 grain, i think the 150 fps more make up for the 7 grain less energy wise, which is what the tavor was designed for.
I think it brings it close to 85 percent of the nato round energy wise unless my physics are off, its a bit late.
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- Location
- Southern ontario
The type 97 is a 3 moa gun out of the box great trigger on it too
No I disagree on that statement completely.
Are you saying its worst because it is sure not. I can do even better groups than that with PMC 62gr. (2-2.5'' groups all day long).
Please, I am not a bull####ting either.
Its usually 1moa, surplus ammo on a windy day..
You aren't getting those velocities that are listed on the boxes. Ammunition manufacturers typically use a 24" barrel for their velocity tests (link). Your Tavor is going to be shooting the .223rem factory loaded 55 V/Zombie-Max in the 29xx range. To get an 18.5" barrel to shoot anywhere near the velocities listed on the boxes, you will need to be shooting ammo loaded to 5.56 pressure levels.
Heavy bullets=slower, light bullets=faster, as the load needs to stay within the caliber's pressure spec. The 1:7 twist is designed to stabilize long bullets, at 5.56 velocity. Military rifles have 1:7 twists because when more energy is needed downrange, heavy bullets are required. Heavy bullets are long, and copper bullets are even longer. Therefore, your Tavor wants to shoot long bullets the best, as that's what the 7 twist is designed for. Think 77 Nosler and Sierra, 62 and 70 TSX, if you want to shoot loads that will still fit into your magazine.
The loads that brought me the accuracy I was looking for are indeed hot. The load data I used for the 75 bthp is from Hornady's 5.56mm NATO section. The velocity I measured from that load falls between Hornady's .223rem 75 Match, and 5.56 75 Match factory loads. So they're not screaming, but they're not standard .223 factory loads either. My load for the 55 V-Max is over .223rem book max. I don't know if this has any connection with accuracy for my Tavor, it's just what worked for me. Keep in mind that when developing a .223rem load, .2 grain increments are a standard increase when looking for accuracy, and this is typical when loading for a rifle caliber with a small case capacity. Another common finding is that accuracy comes well below book maximum charges.
For my 75 bthp load, above 23.8 grains, accuracy significantly fell off. 23.5-23.6 is the sweet spot for my rifle. Your rifle's accuracy node may very likely be somewhere completely different, or it might not like that bullet or powder at all. There is only one way to find out.
A marksman shooting my rifle and home rolled ammo, with an aftermarket trigger, a better rest, and a higher magnification optic might shoot 1 moa, I don't know. But I'm not a marksman, and I don't have any of those other things, so I'm not going to get all twisted up about it.
My Tavor shoots S&B 55 grain like a shotgun pattern, and my buddy's AR shoots it 1-2 moa. His AR shoots my handloads like a shotgun pattern, surprise surprise.
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Yah see that makes a lot of sense. Its just so damn frustrating trying to find the right combination. I know for sure 55 grain factory AE is horrible, vmax is better but im sure there has to be better out there.
I just wish people would comment on the best factory ammo they run in their tavors to get 2 inch groups, cause im really not seeing that, and im not into reloading yet (no space) but soon, soon!
I do have a box of 77 grain gold medal match federal bthp i could try out. But those are only 2720 fps.
andrew3081
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
Until it breaks down.
- Location
- Southern ontario
I havent seen a broken tavor or a t97, that said a t97 doesnt work well with grey lar mags, run the factory or a shaved down 50 cal mag and its golden. Tavors have been known to ruin the bolt on certain pmags so its not perfect either. As for groupings the tavor is inheritingly innacurate because of the way the barrel is attached. The t97 is pinned
- Location
- Aaaaaadmontin AB
It is actually part of the challenge and charm of the rifle, Mike! And you are right about the scientific approach to testing this rifle. One of the commenters said the Tavor was a hunk of junk that can easily be out-performed by his $150.00 SKS. I will bet dollars to donuts that he goes to the range, sets up a zombie target at 25~50 yards and rattles them off as fast as he can pull the trigger. He'll be shooting the cheapest milsurp ammo he can find...and under those conditions that SKS of his is indeed as good as the finest Tavor or AR15 out there! And if all you ever want to do is plink at pop cans close up and poster sized targets that SKS will do such people just fine. When it breaks down you throw it away and buy a new one because it isn't worth it to have a gunsmith put in the time to look at it - never mind fix it. Such people tend to get bored with the sport early and most end up either progressing to more challenging shooting or giving it up altogether.
A handful of the more experienced shooters have sat down to do some serious bench work like Northpoint. I intend to take my testing as far as I can go: concrete shooting bench, chronograph, high accuracy reloads, high end optics and tabulated results. I am in for a long, protracted time on the bench and some serious fun! I've never shot TAC powder before, and my old AR didn't care for the Hornady bullets...but in due course I will try them in the Tavor and anything else I can lay my filthy grubbers on! We need to put some serious homework in on this beast because it is not getting the time and attention it deserves! Gentlemen - I will keep you informed! If you hear something I need to know pass it on!
A handful of the more experienced shooters have sat down to do some serious bench work like Northpoint. I intend to take my testing as far as I can go: concrete shooting bench, chronograph, high accuracy reloads, high end optics and tabulated results. I am in for a long, protracted time on the bench and some serious fun! I've never shot TAC powder before, and my old AR didn't care for the Hornady bullets...but in due course I will try them in the Tavor and anything else I can lay my filthy grubbers on! We need to put some serious homework in on this beast because it is not getting the time and attention it deserves! Gentlemen - I will keep you informed! If you hear something I need to know pass it on!
Don't get me wrong I love my two Tavors.
I buy as much for mechanical curiosity as for collecting and shooting.
My first came in and I had the Mepro lined up perfectly with the back up irons. They were great and spot on to 200yds.
I was using 56gr Golden Tiger. Easliy under 2 moa standing unsupported. Plinkers stance.
I never really measured it but easily 3moa or less.
Later I was at a CQB shoot in Borden hosted by Hungry and Barney. The fellow next to me was using a Tavor.
I was horrified because I am so used to an orthodox rifle deign and the idea of being used to using a bullpup during timed CQB events had me aghast.
Eventually, I sold my Mepro and switched over to an IOR 1.1-4x26 scope. I just leave mine on four power.
Set myself up at a local range with twenty magazines and kept going until I was happy with my muscle memory of where the mag release was.
I used Wolf 55gr and even Wolf 62gr.
From a bench rested, 1.5 moa or less consistently. Funny there wasn't much difference in group size between the 55 and 62gr???
I still have my first Tavor.
Unique enough and I like it enough I bought another in hopes of breeding them in my safe.
I can give more practice as the main reason for the improvements.
The bench rest and the four power sight helped, but shooting two or three hundred rounds and getting into the controls was the deciding reason for betterment.
Please note that I consider myself a mediocre shooter, usually near 2-2.5moa with irons on a better day, but I can make an effort at times.
I also have to give credit to Wolf bulk 55gr FMJ. For supposed bulk ammo, it performs better than I can.
As for that Type 97, with its' integral iron sight I was just around 1.75moa. I had two friends under 1moa, both incredibly capable shooters.
I buy as much for mechanical curiosity as for collecting and shooting.
My first came in and I had the Mepro lined up perfectly with the back up irons. They were great and spot on to 200yds.
I was using 56gr Golden Tiger. Easliy under 2 moa standing unsupported. Plinkers stance.
I never really measured it but easily 3moa or less.
Later I was at a CQB shoot in Borden hosted by Hungry and Barney. The fellow next to me was using a Tavor.
I was horrified because I am so used to an orthodox rifle deign and the idea of being used to using a bullpup during timed CQB events had me aghast.
Eventually, I sold my Mepro and switched over to an IOR 1.1-4x26 scope. I just leave mine on four power.
Set myself up at a local range with twenty magazines and kept going until I was happy with my muscle memory of where the mag release was.
I used Wolf 55gr and even Wolf 62gr.
From a bench rested, 1.5 moa or less consistently. Funny there wasn't much difference in group size between the 55 and 62gr???
I still have my first Tavor.
Unique enough and I like it enough I bought another in hopes of breeding them in my safe.
I can give more practice as the main reason for the improvements.
The bench rest and the four power sight helped, but shooting two or three hundred rounds and getting into the controls was the deciding reason for betterment.
Please note that I consider myself a mediocre shooter, usually near 2-2.5moa with irons on a better day, but I can make an effort at times.
I also have to give credit to Wolf bulk 55gr FMJ. For supposed bulk ammo, it performs better than I can.
As for that Type 97, with its' integral iron sight I was just around 1.75moa. I had two friends under 1moa, both incredibly capable shooters.
What I'm going to do is buy all the types of factory .223 and 5.56 I can possibly find and try them all out at 100yards and post my findings here, this is going to take me a while, but i need a project for the new year and this is it. Someone needs to do it because we're seeing too much disparity on results on this rifle.
You reloaders have an edge, unfortunately I have to resort to factory loads for now...
I was wondering where can I buy true 5.56 ammo (not norinco).
You reloaders have an edge, unfortunately I have to resort to factory loads for now...
I was wondering where can I buy true 5.56 ammo (not norinco).
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- Location
- Southern ontario
No what you going to do is buy a type 97 because your only going discover what you already know with the tavor. Come to the norinco side
I was using 56gr Golden Tiger. Easliy under 2 moa standing unsupported. Plinkers stance.
I never really measured it but easily 3moa or less.
Please note that I consider myself a mediocre shooter, usually near 2-2.5moa with irons on a better day...
Wait....what?
If you are shooting 2moa standing unsupported you are shooting better than most every Queen's medalist past and present.
If it was hitting an 8" gong 10 for 10 standing unsupported at a 100m or kneeling at 200m I probably would have kept it. That was prone, bag supported - so pretty much most variables eliminated.
I'm well aware of what to expect when they are in a machine rest and in different shooting positions. I don't think I was asking too much of the rifle.
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