Tavor ammo review

[ntm]

At what distance? I can't see how it would be possible to shoot through a red dot with a 1moa dot and through a magnifier anywhere close to as well as you could through a quality scope with a fine reticle.
I love my Specter DR, ACOG, and EoTech but they aren't for precision work at 100yds or more.

As long as you have a consistent point of aim, you're good to go.
That point of aim can be achieved by bracketing the dot inside a circular target or using the top of the dot on the target.
Both depend on the target being fairly large, well defined and symmetrical.

 

[cr5]

When using Norinco ammo "Do not fire the Tavor left handed". The manual says not to do this, and this is why. Norinco loads, at times, will shoot out a foot long flame from the breech. Trust me.We have it on video. I only noticed it once. The video showed way more than once. Think what would happen if it was on the left shoulder. Don't worry about catching a brass in the face. Norinco is cheap ammo but you get what you pay for. I think some rounds were a little to hot. From what I have heard the cheap 800 round cans were reloads. The primers are not crimped so this may be true. Maybe just a rumor.The best ammo I found so far is Hornady VMAX 55 grain ammo just as you did. Accurate and it destroys whatever it hits. But its expensive. I was hitting pumpkins at 300 and 400 yards this fall with all types of ammo. The pumpkins were about 10-14 inch diameter. But Hornady was the most accurate at all distances. First shot everytime it hit what I was shooting at. The Tavor was never meant to be a deadly accurate rifle. I would say 2-3 MOA. But if we are lucky this year we should be able to start tuning these up starting with the trigger group. For me I just like having a non restricted, high quality bullpup, that is kinda a CQB rifle. Put a lar mag in it and head out in the bush. Take cheap ammo. Let it rip. Then switch to the good stuff if you want to hunt or go long range with it. But for me, it was hornady

The manual specifically mentions Norinco ammo? WOW!

You're right about the rifle never being meant to be an accurate rifle, it is a battle rifle and 2-3moa is just fine. If you can get better than that then that's great. Just decide if it's worth the extra money for better ammo to go from 2-3moa down to 1.5-2.5moa. Nothing wrong with shooting bulk most of the time and switching to the rifle's preferred ammo when it's time to shoot 200-300yds. As far as I'm concerned there are too many people on here that buy a rifle and expect it to fill every role. If you buy a battle rifle don't expect sub moa. An AR is slightly different due to it's design as all you typically need to do is throw in a $500 barrel and you have a 3/4-1moa rifle, this is not possible with most other designs.

 

[Vimy Ridge]

Good job. Looking forward to part 2.

 

[One Lung Wonder]

The manual specifically mentions Norinco ammo? WOW!

You're right about the rifle never being meant to be an accurate rifle, it is a battle rifle and 2-3moa is just fine. If you can get better than that then that's great. Just decide if it's worth the extra money for better ammo to go from 2-3moa down to 1.5-2.5moa. Nothing wrong with shooting bulk most of the time and switching to the rifle's preferred ammo when it's time to shoot 200-300yds. As far as I'm concerned there are too many people on here that buy a rifle and expect it to fill every role. If you buy a battle rifle don't expect sub moa. An AR is slightly different due to it's design as all you typically need to do is throw in a $500 barrel and you have a 3/4-1moa rifle, this is not possible with most other designs.

I disagree! The AR15 pretty much IS a 'do-it-all' gun. You can shoot anything from varmints to big game to talibangers with it! Also, it didn't really start going sub-MOA until the engineers and after marketers decided that the AR platform was going to be the 'gun of the future'.

In another 5 years at this rate the Tavor will be chasing the AR into oblivion and in 10 will have done it. The trigger is being addressed as we speak, reloaders will have this puppy shooting 1.5 MOA with practice ammo (I will be doing so in the next week or two) - and all this thing needs to go sub MOA is a barrel up to the task. The internet is lighting up as bloggers and industry wonks discover this gun and approve of it.

I don't expect the AR to go willingly - it's fans today will cling to it like our fathers did with their enfileds, M1's and other surplus military guns. Nothing wrong with that - hell, when I go out to play with the guns I use black powder cartridge guns...but nostalgia alone won't keep these old soldiers on the cutting edge of the sport or industry.

 

[greentips]

At what distance? I can't see how it would be possible to shoot through a red dot with a 1moa dot and through a magnifier anywhere close to as well as you could through a quality scope with a fine reticle.
I love my Specter DR, ACOG, and EoTech but they aren't for precision work at 100yds or more.

The key is to understand the relationship between the recticle and the target, so that you can construct a consistent sight picture. Aiming a black 1.5Moa dot at an orange cross hair is not a good sight picture. Here is a trick, get a 5.5" pistol target and cut out the circle so that you have a 4" circle. Nail it on the white side up on a standard 200m black circle target.

 

[cr5]

I disagree! The AR15 pretty much IS a 'do-it-all' gun. You can shoot anything from varmints to big game to talibangers with it! Also, it didn't really start going sub-MOA until the engineers and after marketers decided that the AR platform was going to be the 'gun of the future'.

In another 5 years at this rate the Tavor will be chasing the AR into oblivion and in 10 will have done it. The trigger is being addressed as we speak, reloaders will have this puppy shooting 1.5 MOA with practice ammo (I will be doing so in the next week or two) - and all this thing needs to go sub MOA is a barrel up to the task. The internet is lighting up as bloggers and industry wonks discover this gun and approve of it.

I don't expect the AR to go willingly - it's fans today will cling to it like our fathers did with their enfileds, M1's and other surplus military guns. Nothing wrong with that - hell, when I go out to play with the guns I use black powder cartridge guns...but nostalgia alone won't keep these old soldiers on the cutting edge of the sport or industry.

You disagree! ???
How much varmint, big game, and tailbanger shooting do you do with your AR? Maybe in the U.S but in Canada the AR is far from a do all rifle. Not by design but by our stupid lawmakers.
It didn't take engineers to make the AR a rifle capable of shooting tiny groups, it took a quality barrel and... well that's about it. You could take a 30 year old AR and throw a match barrel in it and maybe a new trigger if you wanted and it would be just as accurate as todays rifles.
The Tavor because of it's design and specifically the way the barrel is mounted will never be able to match a comparable quality AR for accuracy. Hell even a norinco AR will outshoot most Tavors. When you say you expect the Tavor will be doing 1.5moa I expect to hear that it will be consistent even as the barrel warms and not the BS groups the XCR owners claim when they let it sit 10min between shots so that the barrel heat doesn't effect the next shot.
All the engineers have done to the AR is come up with better coatings and machining methods to increase consistency and reliability and the aftermarket has exploded offering new parts to make it more customizable, all of the new stuff is for the U.S market since they are actually allowed to use their rifles and we just get their leftovers.

If the AR was non restricted then yes it would be the do all go to rifle for 90% of Canadian gun lovers but that won't be changing any time soon.

 

[ntm]

The Tavor because of it's design and specifically the way the barrel is mounted will never be able to match a comparable quality AR for accuracy. Hell even a norinco AR will outshoot most Tavors.

Exactly, it's a long stroke piston gun with a non free floated barrel.
It'll never touch a di gun with a free floated barrel in the accuracy department.
The tavors attraction is its nr status, the noveske ar I traded for my tavor was superior in every way.

 

[pac_man]

Great job, I tried a much smaller ammo comparison with my Tavor a few years ago and used a 14 power scope. My conclusion was that the Tavor was a bit too erratic in POI to justify using a scope. I installed an aimpoint micro instead and I am very happy with my set up.

 

[One Lung Wonder]

We'll see, boys, we'll see!

This rifle is only a few tweaks away and once those are made the AR is toast. Hell, it is already! The Tavor gives the same accuracy the AR does in a smaller, handier package. I will stay with my three shot groups, the object of accuracy testing off the bench is to eliminate human error and shooter fatique. This rifle will be going sub MOA for most determined shooters within two years. You heard it here first!

 

[mikethebike]

I think this rifle with a good shooter, a better trigger and vmax ammo can absolutely be a 1 moa rifle.
I'm already at 1.5 moa...

 

[waepek]

I think this rifle with a good shooter, a better trigger and vmax ammo can absolutely be a 1 moa rifle.
I'm already at 1.5 moa...

Two hour of elbow grease can give you a crispier break with the stock trigger. Nutfancy had a vid posted but was taken down. The hardest part of the job is taking the Hammer secure pin out. Once you get it out just remove the hammer pivot and sear pivot. Polish the hammer, sear, and auto sear and you are done. You can lighten the pull a bit more by bending the hammer spring.
I can lend you my trigger pack next time you go so long as I get it back. =o) or I can help you tweak yours.

 

[cr5]

we'll see, boys, we'll see!

This rifle is only a few tweaks away and once those are made the ar is toast. Hell, it is already! The tavor gives the same accuracy the ar does in a smaller, handier package. I will stay with my three shot groups, the object of accuracy testing off the bench is to eliminate human error and shooter fatique. This rifle will be going sub moa for most determined shooters within two years. You heard it here first!

LMFAO

So what tweaks are those?

Just accept that the rifle is at best a 1.5moa rifle with factory ammo and maybe just maybe a 1moa rifle with well developed hand loads. That isn't a bad thing, it's actually quite good considering the design so I don't know why you are getting so defensive. It's a fact and no one is bashing the rifle for it just pointing put the obvious. If you or anyone else can actually show the rifle shooting better groups (at least 5 round and not 5 minutes between shots) then maybe some opinions will change.
The only reason the Tavor is even on the map is because it's non restricted. You can buy 2 decent AR's for the price of one Tavor and if the AR was non restricted no one would buy a $2700 rifle that doesn't shoot as well and needs a bunch of "tweaks". I actually liked the Tavors I've shot just the way they were and had a good time shooting them. I understand the rifle is not a sniper or DMR rifle and accept it for what it is and also what it was designed to do.
I like the Tavor but it just isn't one of the must have rifles on my list.

The AR will never be toast. There is a reason it's been around since 1958 and is going stronger than ever. If our stupid government would pull their heads out of their ass and make it non restricted the AR would be as popular in Canada as it is in the US.

Tavor goes sub moa. Heard it here first but will see it here never.
Good luck waiting for someone else to come up with the tweaks that will magically transform the Tavor into a moa or better rifle. Then we'll have to see if you can actually shoot it.

Enjoy it for what it is and not what it isn't.

 

[ntm]

We'll see, boys, we'll see!

This rifle is only a few tweaks away and once those are made the AR is toast. Hell, it is already! The Tavor gives the same accuracy the AR does in a smaller, handier package. I will stay with my three shot groups, the object of accuracy testing off the bench is to eliminate human error and shooter fatique. This rifle will be going sub MOA for most determined shooters within two years. You heard it here first!

Hell, I can show you some sub moa three shot groups out of the tavor right now.
The fourth and fifth rounds on those groups opened them up to 2 moa though...

 

[cr5]

Hell, I can show you some sub moa three shot groups out of the tavor right now.
The fourth and fifth rounds on those groups opened them up to 2 moa though...

That's why no one cares about 3 shot groups. Fine for hunting but if someone wants to say the rifle is sub moa then it should be sub moa all day. Multiple 10 shot groups should be no problem. No cherry picking the best groups either. That's why I like the threads in the precision forum asking you to make multiple 5 shot groups on multiple targets on the same paper and all of them must be moa or better with no flyers.
Of course that means shooting off sandbags and being very diligent in your trigger control and shooting form.

 

[mikethebike]

Hell, I can show you some sub moa three shot groups out of the tavor right now.
The fourth and fifth rounds on those groups opened them up to 2 moa though...

My groups were 5 shot groups and I'm at 1.5 moa, with all shots counting and all groups counting, no cherry picking and no discounting flyers. Pretty tough to refute that...

 

[cr5]

My groups were 5 shot groups and I'm at 1.5 moa, with all shots counting and all groups counting, no cherry picking and no discounting flyers. Pretty tough to refute that...

Those are excellent groups, well done.
I doubt anyone will do better than that without spending some time developing hand loads.

 

[beltfed]

My groups were 5 shot groups and I'm at 1.5 moa, with all shots counting and all groups counting, no cherry picking and no discounting flyers. Pretty tough to refute that...

Refute what? The targets you posted?
This is exactly why people on this forum say stuff like 'My gun shoots 1/2, 1, 2,...whatever, moa all day long'.

If you analyze your targets, you have considerable vertical and horizontal spread between the different types of ammunition.
It exceeds normal variation in differing ammo alone at that distance.
That indicates (to me at least) that a few 'groups' of 4 or 5 rounds happened to randomly land within 1.5" of one another.

Drawing the above conclusion you have based on the target results you've posted is not only not realistic, it sets up potential buyers of the gun for disappointment when they post queries and you reply " oh yeah! Mine shoots 1.5 moa all day long dood!!)

 

[mikethebike]

Refute what? The targets you posted?
This is exactly why people on this forum say stuff like 'My gun shoots 1/2, 1, 2,...whatever, moa all day long'.

If you analyze your targets, you have considerable vertical and horizontal spread between the different types of ammunition.
It exceeds normal variation in differing ammo alone at that distance.
That indicates (to me at least) that a few 'groups' of 4 or 5 rounds happened to randomly land within 1.5" of one another.

Drawing the above conclusion you have based on the target results you've posted is not only not realistic, it sets up potential buyers of the gun for disappointment when they post queries and you reply " oh yeah! Mine shoots 1.5 moa all day long dood!!)

I don't agree, my experiment shows correlation between type of ammo and size of group, some ammo going out to 5 inches at 100 yards some other types of ammo going to 1.5 inches. When 20 shots of the same ammo (VMAX) in 4 groups of 5 shots are 1.5, 1.75, 1.75 and 1.3 inches, and those same groups at 50 yard 4 times are also showing the same tightness of 1 inch, .5 inch 1.25 inch and 1 inch, that's not a random occurrence, the odds of that going random are quite high. If you look closely at those numbers they show a very close similar distribution from the average size of group at 50 yards and at 100 yards, therefore it's not random.

Of course I have varying vertical and horizontal spread between the types of ammo, that's exactly what I was trying to point out. That some ammo shoots very well on my Tavor and some ammo shoots horribly.

What i was trying to show is that with careful trigger pull, bench rest, careful breathing and VMAX ammo my Tavor shoots consistently 1.5 moa

Not many people on this forum show all their shots and all their targets. they show their best shots and their best targets, this is not the case here.

But of course you're entitled to your opinion, and some will believe it no matter how many targets I show or how many groups are shot. As for myself well I'm confident in my findings.

 

[beltfed]

When 20 shots of the same ammo (VMAX) in 4 groups of 5 shots are 1.5, 1.75, 1.75 and 1.3 inches

You mean the ones containing 3 and 4 rounds - dude - that can be random. Superimpose the two lower groups - it's 7 rounds into maybe 3 - 3.5".
There is enough dispersion with the sets when you compare one to the next and the MPI against the POA.

and those same groups at 50 yard 4 times are also showing the same tightness of 1 inch, .5 inch 1.25 inch and 1 inch

A 50 yard group is near meaningless. 1" at 50 yards does not necessarily translate to 2" at 100 yds.

Of course I have varying vertical and horizontal spread between the types of ammo, that's exactly what I was trying to point out.

You have it within the same ammunition as well.

But of course you're entitled to your opinion, and some will believe it no matter how many targets I show or how many groups are shot. As for myself well I'm confident in my findings.

I've busted your balls enough on this subject. You are going to believe what you will. Good luck with your Tavor!

 

[One Lung Wonder]

I shot my AR15 with 3 shot groups, the SL8 with three shot groups, and now the Tavor. This is a 1.5 MOA rifle.

Why is there any need to 'bust balls' on this subject? The idea is to measure the gun's performance under optimum conditions, with all variables isolated as much as possible. I did it with 3 shot groups. Mike duplicated my results with 5 shot groups. Sorry boys, but three shot groups are absolutely valid for test purposes. This gun, under optimal conditions off the bench will rival most black rifles out there with proper ammo, and beat a lot of them. The AR can do better but it will need special modifications to do so. This is a matter of public record being proven with accepted test procedures.

I wonder why some kids feel threatened over this? If you like the AR shoot it and smile.