Victorian Era milsurp show and tell
- Thread starter Claven2
- Start date
ok, here are some of mine.
M1884 Springfield Trapdoor with Buffington sight in .45-70:
Snider-Enfield MkII** with bayonet, Canadian marked, converted from an 1861 4th pattern Enfield Lock P1853:
Canadian-marked Martini-Henry MkIII, made by Enfield Lock in 1882. The sling and acoutrements are originals. I also have the rare issue oil bottle, but it's not shown:
M1884 Springfield Trapdoor with Buffington sight in .45-70:
Snider-Enfield MkII** with bayonet, Canadian marked, converted from an 1861 4th pattern Enfield Lock P1853:
Canadian-marked Martini-Henry MkIII, made by Enfield Lock in 1882. The sling and acoutrements are originals. I also have the rare issue oil bottle, but it's not shown:
- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
This is a 1854 Extra Korps - Gewehr Lorenz converted to the Wanzl system in 1867. .58 rimfire bore is .565.
With thanks to JP and MC
With thanks to JP and MC
- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
Yes, it is more fun than accurate. I have five reusable brass casings with off center primer pockets. I use .27 cal ramset as primers.
My CM-marked (Canada Militia) Peabody Rifle -
It is one of 3,000 received by the pre-Confederation "United Province of Upper and Lower Canada" in early 1867. As part of the frantic effort to acquire breech-loaders to meet the Fenian Raids emergency, an order for 5,000 .50-60 Peabody rifles had been placed with the Providence Tool Company in 1866, but as a result of delays in production, and the availability of the new Snider-Enfield conversion rifles, a contract option to accept only 3,000 of these rifles was exercised
Canada Militia property mark on butt -
Markings on right side of receiver -
Markings on left side of receiver -
Although I have kept the original rim-fire block unaltered, I got a spare block converted to center-fire, and load shortened 50-70 cases for use in this old girl (original coiled brass Snider-Enfield cartridge shown for comparison) -
According to David Edgecombe ("Defending the Dominion: Canadian Military Rifles, 1855-1955") this is the only know photograph showing any Canadian armed with one of these rifles - a member of a school cadet corps, circa 1870's -
It is one of 3,000 received by the pre-Confederation "United Province of Upper and Lower Canada" in early 1867. As part of the frantic effort to acquire breech-loaders to meet the Fenian Raids emergency, an order for 5,000 .50-60 Peabody rifles had been placed with the Providence Tool Company in 1866, but as a result of delays in production, and the availability of the new Snider-Enfield conversion rifles, a contract option to accept only 3,000 of these rifles was exercised
Canada Militia property mark on butt -
Markings on right side of receiver -
Markings on left side of receiver -
Although I have kept the original rim-fire block unaltered, I got a spare block converted to center-fire, and load shortened 50-70 cases for use in this old girl (original coiled brass Snider-Enfield cartridge shown for comparison) -
According to David Edgecombe ("Defending the Dominion: Canadian Military Rifles, 1855-1955") this is the only know photograph showing any Canadian armed with one of these rifles - a member of a school cadet corps, circa 1870's -
Nice guns! Is that trapdoor not an M1888 trapdoor? According to trapdoorcollector.com, 1884 breech blocks with rod bayonets, if I understand it right, are 1888 models? I like that Birmingham Enfield - first one I've noticed with 24 gauge proofs - aren't most 25 gauged?
Claven,
Springfield U.S. Model 1884 Trapdoor Rifle late serial number 561529 near the end of the production of the Trapdoors
This particular model of 1884 was also known as “Model 1888 US Trapdoor Rifle” or “Ramrod bayonet Model or Model 1889.
This was the last model of the Springfield Trapdoor long arms. manufactured between 1889-1893 Serial numbers ran from 500,000 to 565,000- Total 65000 were manufactured.
This particular rifle was manufactured in 1893 and is serial numbered 561529.
Left side of the stock opposite the lock plate Inspectors cartouche SWP (Samuel W. Porter) over 1893(clear)
Circle cartouche on the underside of pistol grip with a faint “P” in the center.
U.S. on butt plate tang, “33” stamped on the stock just forward of buttplate tang.
‘U.S. SPRINGFIELD” on the lock plate.
Left side of the barrel forward of the breech VP over Eagle over P.
Sling U.S. M1887, marked with "Rock Island Arsenal" and inspection stamp "E.H.S." for E.H. Schmitten Leather Goods, Rock Island.
The sling is also marked "AEA”.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The '24 bore' marking on the P53 Enfield.
Comment from Joe Bilby -author of many CW books.
I'll forward it to my Enfield expert and get back to you. The "24" on the barrel indicates the gun's bore size, which is .58 caliber rather than the standard "25 bore" or British .577. This is one indication that the gun may be a Union import.
From Bill Adams---Enfield CW Guru.
He also advises that some Enfields made for the US, in 24 bore, in the early part of the war, were actually bought by the Rebels, and that might explain the bore size.
David
Another puzzling marking on this P53.
A possible CSA control number on the butt plate tang.
However there is no J.S/Anchor inspector's marking on the stock.
Comment from Bill Adams----the CW Enfield expert.
While it's difficult to positively ID anything and to determine legitimacy from a photo, the piece seems to be a CS central government purchase. 1121 is the "control number." If the ramrod is original to the piece, it will also have 1121 engraved on it near the jag head. There should have been a large serif letter in front of the butt plate tang, but the stock seems to have been scraped. On the bottom of the stock behind the trigger guard, there should be two commission broker's stamps and a JS anchor stamp. The stampings behind the trigger guards were often light. Lacking the anchor stamp, there should be either a G or an SC on the lock side of the butt stock for this particular number range.
Some of the numbered arms can be traced to the vessel and the jobber, but - this is the big hole in the argument presented by the high-rolling dealers - there are only existant records for 2,000 arms that were brought into Savannah.
Most CS dealers like to lead the buyer to believe that there are records for 30,000 numbered arms.
If I ever get my book done, I will attempt to uncloud some of the mystery.
Brit regulations specified that all arms were to have a number not to exceed four digits engraved "and in no instance stamped or punched" on the butt plate, the ramrod, the bayonet socket, the bayonet scabbard stud, and the waist belt. In short, each stand of arms had all of the components numbered together. The Confederates followed the same practice at first, but then realized that it was a waste of time. The Confederates also used a few other numbering methods, and several states also had their own numbering systems. Many Army of Tennessee arms had an additional mark applied.
The piece is not a Brit issue as it lacks the army proof house markings - even arms bought commercially for Brit service were normally reproofed at an army proof house.
The J.S anchor Confederate inspection marking on P53s is very hard to find a photo of, this came from College Hill Arsenal's web site. (Lower left corner)
Notice the butt tang engraved number top left photo.....the number "1" and"2" is very similar to the number "1" and "2" seen on my P53.
Another faint J.S /Anchor marking.
Springfield U.S. Model 1884 Trapdoor Rifle late serial number 561529 near the end of the production of the Trapdoors
This particular model of 1884 was also known as “Model 1888 US Trapdoor Rifle” or “Ramrod bayonet Model or Model 1889.
This was the last model of the Springfield Trapdoor long arms. manufactured between 1889-1893 Serial numbers ran from 500,000 to 565,000- Total 65000 were manufactured.
This particular rifle was manufactured in 1893 and is serial numbered 561529.
Left side of the stock opposite the lock plate Inspectors cartouche SWP (Samuel W. Porter) over 1893(clear)
Circle cartouche on the underside of pistol grip with a faint “P” in the center.
U.S. on butt plate tang, “33” stamped on the stock just forward of buttplate tang.
‘U.S. SPRINGFIELD” on the lock plate.
Left side of the barrel forward of the breech VP over Eagle over P.
Sling U.S. M1887, marked with "Rock Island Arsenal" and inspection stamp "E.H.S." for E.H. Schmitten Leather Goods, Rock Island.
The sling is also marked "AEA”.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The '24 bore' marking on the P53 Enfield.
Comment from Joe Bilby -author of many CW books.
I'll forward it to my Enfield expert and get back to you. The "24" on the barrel indicates the gun's bore size, which is .58 caliber rather than the standard "25 bore" or British .577. This is one indication that the gun may be a Union import.
From Bill Adams---Enfield CW Guru.
He also advises that some Enfields made for the US, in 24 bore, in the early part of the war, were actually bought by the Rebels, and that might explain the bore size.
David
Another puzzling marking on this P53.
A possible CSA control number on the butt plate tang.
However there is no J.S/Anchor inspector's marking on the stock.
Comment from Bill Adams----the CW Enfield expert.
While it's difficult to positively ID anything and to determine legitimacy from a photo, the piece seems to be a CS central government purchase. 1121 is the "control number." If the ramrod is original to the piece, it will also have 1121 engraved on it near the jag head. There should have been a large serif letter in front of the butt plate tang, but the stock seems to have been scraped. On the bottom of the stock behind the trigger guard, there should be two commission broker's stamps and a JS anchor stamp. The stampings behind the trigger guards were often light. Lacking the anchor stamp, there should be either a G or an SC on the lock side of the butt stock for this particular number range.
Some of the numbered arms can be traced to the vessel and the jobber, but - this is the big hole in the argument presented by the high-rolling dealers - there are only existant records for 2,000 arms that were brought into Savannah.
Most CS dealers like to lead the buyer to believe that there are records for 30,000 numbered arms.
If I ever get my book done, I will attempt to uncloud some of the mystery.
Brit regulations specified that all arms were to have a number not to exceed four digits engraved "and in no instance stamped or punched" on the butt plate, the ramrod, the bayonet socket, the bayonet scabbard stud, and the waist belt. In short, each stand of arms had all of the components numbered together. The Confederates followed the same practice at first, but then realized that it was a waste of time. The Confederates also used a few other numbering methods, and several states also had their own numbering systems. Many Army of Tennessee arms had an additional mark applied.
The piece is not a Brit issue as it lacks the army proof house markings - even arms bought commercially for Brit service were normally reproofed at an army proof house.
The J.S anchor Confederate inspection marking on P53s is very hard to find a photo of, this came from College Hill Arsenal's web site. (Lower left corner)
Notice the butt tang engraved number top left photo.....the number "1" and"2" is very similar to the number "1" and "2" seen on my P53.
Another faint J.S /Anchor marking.
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cornbinder49
Regular
I'll play, first is a MkII*Snider 1862 Enfield dated lock. This rifle belonged to my great, great grandfather when he was part of the 46th East Durham Battalion. (Sub battalion of the Midland Battalion) He joined in 1885, but we cannot find the facts if he was for sure involved in the 1885 Rebellion. But strangly enough, he did own a parcel of land in Manitoba acquired about that time. (He live in Newtonville ON) But if he was holding the rifle or not, good chance it saw action in the Rebellion.
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Second is his Martini. It is a MkI, marked P Webley and Son, Birmingham. It has 3 digit serial number. The odd part of this rifle, it has a .458 bore, and yes I have slugged it and checked it. He transfered from the 46th to the 48th Highlanders in Toronto in 1890 for a few years. He joined the target shooting team. Won different competitions in Canada. The team even went to the National Rifle Ass. competition in Bisley a couple times. I have a really nice photo of him holding this rifle with his team after winning the Canadian championship. But I have to find a scanner big enough to scan it.
[video]
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Here is a picture of him, in his 48th Highlander tunic, and you can see his honors of bisley in 1891 and 1894 on his sleave.
[video]
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He transfered back the the 46thin 1896 I believe. He served with them up unitl 1901, and rose to the rank of capt. He felt that he wanted to do his part with the war in South Africa. He resigned from the Militia and joined the Canadian Contingent force. Joining through the 2rd mounted rifles in Peterborough. He was killed in action at the Battle of Harts River in 1902.
Heres another picture, kinda pre victorian, buts its a P1796 heavy calvary sword. It has the "Battle of Waterloo" update done. Thats were they were ordered to grind the hatchet point off the business end of the sword to a more conventional point. This is also part of the great great grandfathers collection. The only thing I can figure how it fits is, my grandfathers family came from Dumfries Scotland. So it's possible a family member was part of the Scot Greys, who fought at the battle of Waterloo, and were a heavy/dragoon calvary unit.
[video]
[/IMG]
Second is his Martini. It is a MkI, marked P Webley and Son, Birmingham. It has 3 digit serial number. The odd part of this rifle, it has a .458 bore, and yes I have slugged it and checked it. He transfered from the 46th to the 48th Highlanders in Toronto in 1890 for a few years. He joined the target shooting team. Won different competitions in Canada. The team even went to the National Rifle Ass. competition in Bisley a couple times. I have a really nice photo of him holding this rifle with his team after winning the Canadian championship. But I have to find a scanner big enough to scan it.
[video]
[/IMG]Here is a picture of him, in his 48th Highlander tunic, and you can see his honors of bisley in 1891 and 1894 on his sleave.
[video]
[/IMG]He transfered back the the 46thin 1896 I believe. He served with them up unitl 1901, and rose to the rank of capt. He felt that he wanted to do his part with the war in South Africa. He resigned from the Militia and joined the Canadian Contingent force. Joining through the 2rd mounted rifles in Peterborough. He was killed in action at the Battle of Harts River in 1902.
Heres another picture, kinda pre victorian, buts its a P1796 heavy calvary sword. It has the "Battle of Waterloo" update done. Thats were they were ordered to grind the hatchet point off the business end of the sword to a more conventional point. This is also part of the great great grandfathers collection. The only thing I can figure how it fits is, my grandfathers family came from Dumfries Scotland. So it's possible a family member was part of the Scot Greys, who fought at the battle of Waterloo, and were a heavy/dragoon calvary unit.
[video]
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Here is a photo of a sporting martini that I finally got around to shooting. I wanted to try out a new idea of chamber liner / cartridge combination. In the past when I used a full length 45-70 in a chamber liner and the neck of the liner was not a perfect fit, I got a pressure ring at the mouth of the shell which made removing the fired shell difficult. This time I made up some 45-70 shells shortened to end just at the beginning of the shoulder of the chamber liner. For a slug, I used a 330 grain .458 slug cast with roughly a 5% alloy mix so that it would obturate in the bore. First trial shots today and it seems to work quite well. I will add a photo of the target later when my camera is charged.
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
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- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
cb49, Nice to see such family history. Remarkable!
Here is an 1885 North-West Rebellion photograph of Rifleman James M. Austin of the 49th Battalion taken after his return home from service in H Company (provided by the Hastings Rifles) of the Midland Provisional Battalion. As one would expect for a member of a Rifles unit, he is armed with a Snider-Enfield 2-band Short Rifle carried "at the trail" -
Provide your e-mail address via PM and I will send you a PDF file of "SOME EXPERIENCES OF THE EXPEDITION OF THE NORTH WEST
FIELD FORCE AS COPIED FROM A DIARY KEPT IN MY POSSESSION" written by Austin in 1924, but apparently never published until Vol. ###VIII, No. 1 (Winter 1985) of Saskatchewan History put out by the Saskatchewan Archives Board, from which I transcribed it .... it is quite short, only seven typed pages.
Combinder49: What was your great-great-grandfather's name? I can take a look through lists I have of men who served in the North-West Field Force and see if I can locate him in the Midland Provisional Battalion.
As you likely know, each contributing Ontario Battalion (such as the 46th, and the 49th .... see my posting above about Rifleman Austin) provided one Company to the composite Midland Provisional Battalion ..... so the majority of the men in the 46th at that time would have stayed home ....
I should perhaps mention that the "yataghan" sword bayonet you show in the photo of your 3-band Snider-Enfield "Long Rifle" is not correct for that model, and I presume cannot even be fitted to it. That style of bayonet is specific to the 2-band "Short Rifle" (such as seen in the photo of Rifleman Austin posted above) and locks onto a "bar" (bayonet lug) mounted on the side of the barrel, like this -
The 3-band "Long Rifle" shown in your photo should take a Pattern 1853 socket bayonet (which locks onto the base of the front sight) -
As you likely know, each contributing Ontario Battalion (such as the 46th, and the 49th .... see my posting above about Rifleman Austin) provided one Company to the composite Midland Provisional Battalion ..... so the majority of the men in the 46th at that time would have stayed home ....
I should perhaps mention that the "yataghan" sword bayonet you show in the photo of your 3-band Snider-Enfield "Long Rifle" is not correct for that model, and I presume cannot even be fitted to it. That style of bayonet is specific to the 2-band "Short Rifle" (such as seen in the photo of Rifleman Austin posted above) and locks onto a "bar" (bayonet lug) mounted on the side of the barrel, like this -
The 3-band "Long Rifle" shown in your photo should take a Pattern 1853 socket bayonet (which locks onto the base of the front sight) -
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cornbinder49
Regular
GrantR: His name was W.P.K. Milligan. With the bayonets you are correct, the socket bayonet in my Martini photo is actually the bayonet for the snider. But does not fit with the modified front sight on the Snider. And just placed one with each for the pictures. I'm not really sure where the "yataghan" fits in with everything.
I've seen this photo. It seems to be the one of the only surviving photos of anything to do with the 49th Hastings Rifles from that era. That wedge cap and bandolier are apparently made from feed sacking.
I learn history by imagining myself in these great moments. I'm from Hastings County, so anything from the 49th Rifles gives me some sort of tangible link to the past.
cornbinder49
Regular
Thanks, I almost didn't have these firearms. When I was about 5, my grandmother donated everything to a local museum. (Including medals, trophies and personal effects) But with a year of letter writings and meetings, I was able to get everything back.
Cornbinder:
As mentioned, the yataghan bayonet was originally introduced for the 2-band Short rifles (first, that version of the .577 muzzle-loading Enfield rifle introduced in the 1850's) and then the Snider-conversion breech-loaders of the same model. Here is a period studio photograph of a young Canadian Militia Sergeant of the 41st Brockville Battalion of Rifles with the bayonet affixed on his short rifle, alongside another showing a private in the 45th West Durham Battalion of Infantry (i.e. regular infantry) with bayonet affixed on his long rifle -
The yataghan sword bayonet mounted on a short rifle- which was 6" shorter than the 3-band rifle - gave the same "reach" at the point as the socket bayonet mounted on the latter. Rifles units in the British Army, whose firearms were shorter than those of regular infantry, traditionally had longer sword bayonets for that reason. It is an interesting bit of military history that they were ordered to "fix swords" rather than "fix bayonets" .... a traditional distinction which survives in most units designated as "Rifles" to the present day, notwithstanding that nowadays everyone is armed with the same pattern of rifle and bayonet!)
Here are scans of the two lists of individuals serving in the Midland Battalion. The first was published in the bound "Souvenir Edition" of the Canadian Pictorial & Illustrated War News and the other is part of an Appendix in a period book entitled "The Riel Rebellion of 1885". I didn't see your ancestor's name on a quick-scan through, but to be honest I haven't even carefully compared them to see if there are any differences in the lists ....
You mentioned that you slugged the bore of the Martini at .458". Although it is possible that a commercial-production "target rifle" like that might have a somewhat tighter bore than the usual military-issue rifle, I'd be surprised if it was really that tight, because the rules of that type of shooting back then required competitors rifles to be within military specifications.
When measuring your slug, you likely didn't make allowance for the fact that the Henry-pattern rifling of these rifles is odd-numbered. Your slug would essentially have been seven-sided, so that any caliper measurement likely measured from a "land" impression on one side to a "groove" impression on the other side, but wouldn't have measured the "major diameter". Here is a period diagram of the rifling of the Martini-Henry which will hopefully clarify what I mean, beside a much more simplified diagram which more clearly shows the pattern -
Note that instead of having what we think of "lands" and "grooves" in the usual sense, the Henry-rifled bore is effectively septagonal in cross-section, but has a little "peak" in the center of each valley formed by the seven flat sides, which rises to the same "height" as the center of each flat. Thus one such peak is always directly opposite the center of the opposite flat (as shown by the horizontal dashed line across the middle of the first diagram.)
A circle drawn through the deepest "valleys" yields a "major diameter" of .465" .... whereas a circle drawn through all of the "high points" has a circumference of only .450" (the "minor diameter".) Note that the "median" measurement between those two extremes is .4575" - very close to your slug measurement. Although a .458" bullet will accordingly shoot with some degree of accuracy in a Martini-Henry bore, one of rather larger diameter (at least .465" .... but as much as .468" or even .470") will be much more accurate.
By the way, for lots of help and discussion about these Victorian-era British military rifles, including shooting them, join us here: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/directory (Despite the generic-sounding name, this board is almost entirely dedicated to collecting and shooting Victorian-era firearms, primarily military patterns.)
As mentioned, the yataghan bayonet was originally introduced for the 2-band Short rifles (first, that version of the .577 muzzle-loading Enfield rifle introduced in the 1850's) and then the Snider-conversion breech-loaders of the same model. Here is a period studio photograph of a young Canadian Militia Sergeant of the 41st Brockville Battalion of Rifles with the bayonet affixed on his short rifle, alongside another showing a private in the 45th West Durham Battalion of Infantry (i.e. regular infantry) with bayonet affixed on his long rifle -
The yataghan sword bayonet mounted on a short rifle- which was 6" shorter than the 3-band rifle - gave the same "reach" at the point as the socket bayonet mounted on the latter. Rifles units in the British Army, whose firearms were shorter than those of regular infantry, traditionally had longer sword bayonets for that reason. It is an interesting bit of military history that they were ordered to "fix swords" rather than "fix bayonets" .... a traditional distinction which survives in most units designated as "Rifles" to the present day, notwithstanding that nowadays everyone is armed with the same pattern of rifle and bayonet!)
Here are scans of the two lists of individuals serving in the Midland Battalion. The first was published in the bound "Souvenir Edition" of the Canadian Pictorial & Illustrated War News and the other is part of an Appendix in a period book entitled "The Riel Rebellion of 1885". I didn't see your ancestor's name on a quick-scan through, but to be honest I haven't even carefully compared them to see if there are any differences in the lists ....
You mentioned that you slugged the bore of the Martini at .458". Although it is possible that a commercial-production "target rifle" like that might have a somewhat tighter bore than the usual military-issue rifle, I'd be surprised if it was really that tight, because the rules of that type of shooting back then required competitors rifles to be within military specifications.
When measuring your slug, you likely didn't make allowance for the fact that the Henry-pattern rifling of these rifles is odd-numbered. Your slug would essentially have been seven-sided, so that any caliper measurement likely measured from a "land" impression on one side to a "groove" impression on the other side, but wouldn't have measured the "major diameter". Here is a period diagram of the rifling of the Martini-Henry which will hopefully clarify what I mean, beside a much more simplified diagram which more clearly shows the pattern -
Note that instead of having what we think of "lands" and "grooves" in the usual sense, the Henry-rifled bore is effectively septagonal in cross-section, but has a little "peak" in the center of each valley formed by the seven flat sides, which rises to the same "height" as the center of each flat. Thus one such peak is always directly opposite the center of the opposite flat (as shown by the horizontal dashed line across the middle of the first diagram.)
A circle drawn through the deepest "valleys" yields a "major diameter" of .465" .... whereas a circle drawn through all of the "high points" has a circumference of only .450" (the "minor diameter".) Note that the "median" measurement between those two extremes is .4575" - very close to your slug measurement. Although a .458" bullet will accordingly shoot with some degree of accuracy in a Martini-Henry bore, one of rather larger diameter (at least .465" .... but as much as .468" or even .470") will be much more accurate.
By the way, for lots of help and discussion about these Victorian-era British military rifles, including shooting them, join us here: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/directory (Despite the generic-sounding name, this board is almost entirely dedicated to collecting and shooting Victorian-era firearms, primarily military patterns.)
