Just a reminder, the op was asking what kind of mountain rifle we could suggest.
A few of us answered his question. Some derailed the thread with bear spray.
Mountain Rifle with Grizzly capability..your thoughts?
- Thread starter BCBAIRDO
- Start date
Just a reminder, the op was asking what kind of mountain rifle we could suggest.
A few of us answered his question. Some derailed the thread with bear spray.
I never implied that you were any less of a person for choosing spray over a firearm.
I have carried spray many times when bagging or highpointing, sometimes a gun isn't practical and the situation dictates the kit.
I don't desire an argument with you anyways as it seems my avatar has Rambo in it and yours is a guy on a mountain with a big ass sheep of some sort...no win situation for me!
I didn't say you did imply that...lol Anyhow, no harm done. Guessing we are more on the same page than we aren't.
Thanks for the info guys...I think you are probably right....if I am going into alpine country and have intention of shooting a grizz because I have an LEH tag in my pocket then I suck it up, gun up and carry the heavier rifle and bigger caliber.....otherwise I stick with my 7mm-08 for the rest of my alpine hunting.
Forgot to mention to the OP, if you currently shoot a model seven with the factory 18.5" or 20" pencil barrel you would really like the Model Seven 350 in either KS (good luck ever finding one) or the much more common CDL model. With the .358 bore 20" barrel they really balance nicely with just the right amount of forward weight. The Model Seven in 7-08 I owned along with others I have handled were too butt-heavy for my liking. Open sights standard on both those models as well.
Pick a decent sheep/elk round in a light rifle you shoot well and use good bullets.
I carry a 7-08 loaded with ttsx Barnes and am never really worried about it. I have only killed one Grizzly - at about 100 yards with a 200 grain tsx at around 2950 out of a 300 wby.
I have to admit - The damn thing tore off 200 yards through the bush with the top of his heart gone and the offside shoulder broken. That was impressive.
But he would have been just as dead with 150 grainer out of the 7-08.
My guess is a 7-08, 308, 280, 30-06 in a lightweight rifle that you are able to shoot well enough and practice with would work.
I carry a 7-08 loaded with ttsx Barnes and am never really worried about it. I have only killed one Grizzly - at about 100 yards with a 200 grain tsx at around 2950 out of a 300 wby.
I have to admit - The damn thing tore off 200 yards through the bush with the top of his heart gone and the offside shoulder broken. That was impressive.
But he would have been just as dead with 150 grainer out of the 7-08.
My guess is a 7-08, 308, 280, 30-06 in a lightweight rifle that you are able to shoot well enough and practice with would work.
powder burner
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
Never sprayed a bear. Shot a medium-large sized black once with a 7mm08. Have a can of bear spray too.
That aside, consider this. Oleoresin capsicum ( O C ) when first out for law enforcement was considered " karate in a can". However, when used over time on real life bad guys, the enforcement world learned something.
Very determined goal oriented bad guys were able to fight through the stuff and still had fight left in them. Now to further this one has to look at this. Every enforcement class of recruits has to get sprayed with the devil juice (o c), fight through a scenario and ultimately fight off " bad guy". Or they simply don't make the cut.
Now back to bear spray ( o c )... I'm not 100% sold as I consider it to be the "karate in a can" for bears. Sure it's going to work on some bears, but the goal determined bear is going to be able to get through it.
So just what the h e double hockey sticks am I saying? Don't trust every product to be the best all end all. I'd say positive imagery, backup plans, fewer options is better. ( bear spray and rifle, regardless of cartridge) and a good knowledge of bears, and bear country, is likely a better way of staying safe out there. Your brain is your best weapon or tool to have, if its used right.
Good way to stay out of trouble is not to get yourself in it in the first place.
That aside, consider this. Oleoresin capsicum ( O C ) when first out for law enforcement was considered " karate in a can". However, when used over time on real life bad guys, the enforcement world learned something.
Very determined goal oriented bad guys were able to fight through the stuff and still had fight left in them. Now to further this one has to look at this. Every enforcement class of recruits has to get sprayed with the devil juice (o c), fight through a scenario and ultimately fight off " bad guy". Or they simply don't make the cut.
Now back to bear spray ( o c )... I'm not 100% sold as I consider it to be the "karate in a can" for bears. Sure it's going to work on some bears, but the goal determined bear is going to be able to get through it.
So just what the h e double hockey sticks am I saying? Don't trust every product to be the best all end all. I'd say positive imagery, backup plans, fewer options is better. ( bear spray and rifle, regardless of cartridge) and a good knowledge of bears, and bear country, is likely a better way of staying safe out there. Your brain is your best weapon or tool to have, if its used right.
Good way to stay out of trouble is not to get yourself in it in the first place.
If somewhere in the content of a CGN thread it is shown to contain the words "grizzly" "spray" or "defence", generous heaps of emotion, overreaction and shenanigans are sure to follow!
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Kimber Montana in 338 win mag for me, its a light gun with good thump from a 210 ttsx. I have used 338 for coyotes, deer, elk, moose, bear and one sheep. it gets good range and I don't carry special ammo for sheep or special ammo for bear. I always have bear spray with me in the mountains. In the thick stuff while hiking I have the bear spray ready and my gun is always in hand anyway, especially when there's meat on my back. If I didn't have my 338, I would use my 30-06 with 180's for all game.
burnt_servo
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- right in the middle of b.c.
HMMMM bear spray or bullets ?????? decisions decisions decisions ...... one hand your offering to cover yourself in spicy Cajun dressing , making a delicious meal out of yourself self for some bear who would like to kick it up a notch that night .
on the other hand you can replace that useless weight with bullets , that can save your life , or the lives of others .....
one guy I know calls bear spray the cowards way of committing suicide .
I was sprayed with the chit , full on , point blank range and was able to put the guy in a headlock and disarm him , then pick up and hand him his hat and told him in no uncertain terms to leave ..... then about 2 to 3 minutes after that happened , did the bear spray kick in ...... never will I put my life in the hands of some sort of pressurised , spicy dressing topping .
as for rifles , a rifle in 9.3x62 weighing around 6-7 pounds will do the trick .... barring that, any rifle you can comfortably carry and shoot is the very best choice .
on the other hand you can replace that useless weight with bullets , that can save your life , or the lives of others .....
one guy I know calls bear spray the cowards way of committing suicide .
I was sprayed with the chit , full on , point blank range and was able to put the guy in a headlock and disarm him , then pick up and hand him his hat and told him in no uncertain terms to leave ..... then about 2 to 3 minutes after that happened , did the bear spray kick in ...... never will I put my life in the hands of some sort of pressurised , spicy dressing topping .
as for rifles , a rifle in 9.3x62 weighing around 6-7 pounds will do the trick .... barring that, any rifle you can comfortably carry and shoot is the very best choice .
Certainly can't argue with this logic....
A fella at the range had a 9.3X62 Tikka T3 Lite that I was interested in until he let me shoot it...ouch! I don't necessarily put the blame on the cartridge though, may just be the stock not fitting me well as the T3's I've shot really kick my a$$.
IIRC it went just shy of 8lbs scoped, could certainly fit the bill.
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Bigfoot 870
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
"sheephunter, while I find the majority of your posts informative,I must admit your sounding awful elitist in this particular thread.
I can respect your opinion that bear spray has tested more effective for you personally, but I think you are selling a good number of decent rifleman short by saying they'd be better served with spray in a stressful situation.
As Gatehouse said there are many of us CGN'ers that live, work and play in the mountains and you don't need to be hunting or guiding to be spending time in the alpine and observing the behaviour of the local fauna.
Black bear have given me more trouble than grizzly ever have, I'd sure like to keep it that way.
These days I have little ones running the ridges with me, and it's my responsibility to both teach them bear safety and protect them. Nothing "Rambo" about it."
Very well said Sun_and_Steel_77
I can respect your opinion that bear spray has tested more effective for you personally, but I think you are selling a good number of decent rifleman short by saying they'd be better served with spray in a stressful situation.
As Gatehouse said there are many of us CGN'ers that live, work and play in the mountains and you don't need to be hunting or guiding to be spending time in the alpine and observing the behaviour of the local fauna.
Black bear have given me more trouble than grizzly ever have, I'd sure like to keep it that way.
These days I have little ones running the ridges with me, and it's my responsibility to both teach them bear safety and protect them. Nothing "Rambo" about it."
Very well said Sun_and_Steel_77
I've read the study's and the spray does make sense to me.I would prefer to use it it tight quarters as it would be much easier to deploy.I carry both but usually just spray when bow hunting.I wonder how many skunks get eatin by bears? And i wonder if bears have an instinctual aversion to extreme smells like skunks?.
Powder burner is right. Bear spray (pepper spray) does not work on everybody.It will not work on a goal oriented person or a slightly deranged person. It does not work on a determined dog. A (apparently) predatory black bear will back off from being sprayed but will continue to circle you looking for an opportunity. It will probably work on a curious bear or a bear making a warning charge. All it does is inflict pain kind of a burning sensation to soft moist membranes.
It will work in the majority of situations but I would not depend on it as a life saver. A bear protecting it's cubs or a food supply are very goal oriented.
Neil
It will work in the majority of situations but I would not depend on it as a life saver. A bear protecting it's cubs or a food supply are very goal oriented.
Neil
I submitted before being finished.On the other hand I would feel comfortable will a 270 or 7mag. or something similar. A friend of mine spend the summers as a range rider for the anchorP ranch in the forestry between the Livingston range and the continental divide in the Old Man River basin and carried a 30-30 because 30-40 years ago there was a problem with grizzly bears preying on livestock. When I suggested that the 30-30 might be light he said he has shot 17 with it with no problems.
I've had to shoot while guiding and they don't seem as tough as an elk. However an elk won't eat you if you don't make a good shot.
Neilm
I've had to shoot while guiding and they don't seem as tough as an elk. However an elk won't eat you if you don't make a good shot.
Neilm
Another thread derailed because someone mentioned grizzly bear...........I have hunted, worked and played in grizzly country for the past 35 years, seen scads of them and shot a few.......just can't grasp all this controversy over bears. I have never worried about them, I'm not scared of them in the least and I will deal with one when and if the situation presents. I have been within feet of several both blacks and grizzlies and body language tells all. I personally don't carry bear spray, I carry firearms but that is my personal choice and is legal 365 days a year in the Yukon. I don't go hiking in National Parks because I cannot carry one there. Hell, I don't go hiking anywhere unless there is a sheep or goat in the near future. Statistically I'm more likely to get mugged in downtown Whitehorse than get beat up by a bear, and I don't worry about that either. So many words and heated opinions about something that virtually never happens, more people win lotteries each year than have injurious encounters with grizzlies. It's like arguing about what to do in a plane crash, it CAN happen but so rarely does that it just isn't something I'm going to spend hours and hours worrying how to prepare for it, and I've been in three of them. Each and every situation can have so many variables as to make it impossible to prepare yourself for it, so I rely on my common sense and ability to assess a given situation, then I can act or react. I find dealing with people far more dangerous than dealing with bears, and have had to defend myself many more times from human encounters than ever would be possible with bears. My son had to shoot a grizzly in self defense, it flat out charged him from about 40 mtrs, so he shot it with his 30-06 twice, end of story. He kept his wits about him, assessed the situation and the bear, had his rifle in hand because he saw the fresh tracks on the trail, saw the bear at the same time as the bear saw him and was able to defend himself as necessary. 30 year old starving grizzly, no bluff, just a flat out silent charge. I have hunted 5 times as much as he has, maybe 10 times and it has never happened to me, so really what's the odds. We record less than 1 injurious encounter a year in the Yukon, and have the highest grizzly density in Canada........it is roughly the same as our murder rate!!
I'm sorry but I just don't understand all this rhetoric about how best to defend against something that is likely never going to happen anyway.
I'm sorry but I just don't understand all this rhetoric about how best to defend against something that is likely never going to happen anyway.
For a hundred years prior to about 1960 of so, the hinterlands of northern BC and much of the Yukon, were well populated with tappers and prospectors who lived year around in their cabins in the bush, only getting out to a trading post a few times a year.
In the 1950s I became acquainted with many of these people and saw them in their own environment. These were true bushmen and experts at the art of wilderness survival. They saw all phases of the wilderness at all times of the year and could easily be termed the last of Canada's true bushmen.
The first old trapper that I asked about grizzly bears told me that if you hunt grizzly you should have at least a 303 British. They highly respected grizzly, but were not unduly afraid of them. They told me that grizzly will leave you alone, just be very careful not to get between a mother and her cubs.
All the old timers in the bush had the same feeling toward black bears. They considered them as presenting about the same danger to them as would a Jersey cow! I will quickly add however, that modern black bears are more dangerous to people than were the bears the old trappers and prospectors knew. Until about the 1980s in BC, black bear were considered vermin which could be, and often were, shot by anyone who saw a black bear. Thus, black bears were scared stiff of the sight or smell of a human and would come no where near a person.
To see how unafraid the old timers in the bush were of bears, one just had to notice what firearms they carried. Close to 100% of every old time prospector and trapper in the bush carried a single shot, bolt action 22 and shorts for ammunition, for getting food for themselves and their dog. This was because they would tell you there were far more grouse, squirrels, rabbits, ground squirrels and ptarmigan in the bush than there were moose and caribou. They all had a big game rifle, nearly always a 30-30, but they would only carry it if they were in particular hunting for meat. Prospectors would commonly spend an entire summer and fall season in the bush, away from any cabin, and their only firearm would be their single shot 22 with shorts.
Those old timers would have had great amusement if they could have seen how desperately afraid the modern campers, or outdoor people are of bears!
In the 1950s I became acquainted with many of these people and saw them in their own environment. These were true bushmen and experts at the art of wilderness survival. They saw all phases of the wilderness at all times of the year and could easily be termed the last of Canada's true bushmen.
The first old trapper that I asked about grizzly bears told me that if you hunt grizzly you should have at least a 303 British. They highly respected grizzly, but were not unduly afraid of them. They told me that grizzly will leave you alone, just be very careful not to get between a mother and her cubs.
All the old timers in the bush had the same feeling toward black bears. They considered them as presenting about the same danger to them as would a Jersey cow! I will quickly add however, that modern black bears are more dangerous to people than were the bears the old trappers and prospectors knew. Until about the 1980s in BC, black bear were considered vermin which could be, and often were, shot by anyone who saw a black bear. Thus, black bears were scared stiff of the sight or smell of a human and would come no where near a person.
To see how unafraid the old timers in the bush were of bears, one just had to notice what firearms they carried. Close to 100% of every old time prospector and trapper in the bush carried a single shot, bolt action 22 and shorts for ammunition, for getting food for themselves and their dog. This was because they would tell you there were far more grouse, squirrels, rabbits, ground squirrels and ptarmigan in the bush than there were moose and caribou. They all had a big game rifle, nearly always a 30-30, but they would only carry it if they were in particular hunting for meat. Prospectors would commonly spend an entire summer and fall season in the bush, away from any cabin, and their only firearm would be their single shot 22 with shorts.
Those old timers would have had great amusement if they could have seen how desperately afraid the modern campers, or outdoor people are of bears!
perfect choice for your needs. good hunting time.
