Handgun Holster, what are they used for? (in canada)

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How the #### has this thread lasted this long?



No doubt! This thread has degraded.
Let it go boys.... I can see both sides of this debate but I'd rather our society was moving towards personal responsibility instead of rapidly accelerating away from it!
Fair to say I'd be happy to shoot beside any of the protagonists here and until you show me something unsafe I will give you a chance to be safe and responsible for your actions.
 
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So first you say,...

Please explain what use of cover protocol is and what that has to do with safely using a holster? Same questions for the elements/components to the draw and reholstering?

Inferring that you know little about these topics and are requesting detailed information on them.

Then you say,...

I've taken over 150 hours of professional training to date,... AND,.... I'm a big fan of professional training and feel everyone should attend some.

How am I supposed to interpret this? That you are being deliberately obtuse or deceitful? That your professional training claim is BS or is in some discipline other than firearms related? Surely you can understand the problems in resolving the two above statements. There is no way.

Look, let's agree to disagree since clearly we see the world from two very different perspectives.
If you want to believe safe holster usage requires no training, good luck to you. I hope this never bites you in the @ss.
 
Sometimes it feels threatening to ones core beliefs when confronted by someone else's different belief.

Confidence helps.
 
So first you say,...



Inferring that you know little about these topics and are requesting detailed information on them.

Then you say,...



How am I supposed to interpret this? That you are being deliberately obtuse or deceitful? That your professional training claim is BS or is in some discipline other than firearms related? Surely you can understand the problems in resolving the two above statements. There is no way.

Look, let's agree to disagree since clearly we see the world from two very different perspectives.
If you want to believe safe holster usage requires no training, good luck to you. I hope this never bites you in the @ss.

I asked those questions because of what I know not because I don't know. I would like to hear the answers but you have yet to offer any. My credentials are valid.

Tdc
 
:feedTroll:

Don't feed Mr Negative thread dominating troll. It's his specialized credentials.

Yep , the master gamer. Too many don't have the smarts to see how they are being used. It's sad because some of us are here to learn. The carefully designed trap was sprung and the game is over.
 
I asked those questions because of what I know not because I don't know. I would like to hear the answers but you have yet to offer any. My credentials are valid.

Tdc

So you asked me to explain something to you that you already know and are adamant you know. And you say your credentials are valid, that you have 150+ hours of professional firearms training, but see no value in proper holster training.

You're trolling, TDC. You are trying to get me to say something so you can find a loose thread and start tugging.
I gave you the index of topics we cover as part of basic training. You don't really want anything more.
We both know this so let's move on.
 
CatFight.jpg


:p I love CGN!
 
Everyone has an opinion and that's yours - not mine.

You are correct, it is my opinion, based off the things you have said in this thread that you don't know what you're talking about.

However, you have never met me in person, you have never seen how I handle firearms so you have no basis to make the accusation that I will have a negligent discharge.

I make up for my lack of training, by always observing safe handling practices and moving slowly, but then I'm the kind of guy to use a torque wrench on lug nuts.
 
I really enjoy bacon.




Aren't you a cheery positive fellow? Were you talking about me?

My money would be on that he's talking about me. This would be the third thread in the last little while he's tried to get some jibes in on me. It's all in good fun I believe though!
 
You are correct, it is my opinion, based off the things you have said in this thread that you don't know what you're talking about.

However, you have never met me in person, you have never seen how I handle firearms so you have no basis to make the accusation that I will have a negligent discharge.

I make up for my lack of training, by always observing safe handling practices and moving slowly, but then I'm the kind of guy to use a torque wrench on lug nuts.

Really? I can't infer by your comments on training/proper handling as to how you may handle a firearm? So when you say "I've had zero instruction for holster use" but you use a holster anyway, there is no way I can infer that you may be doing something unsafe or incorrect because your observation of it was flawed in some way or perhaps you watched someone with the same attitude as yours making mistakes that you decided to copy?

Tell me has that ever worked in real life anywhere else? When you got your driver's license did you say to the MoT tester "No need to test me. I've been watching my parents drive for years. I'll go slow. Now where do I go to get my picture taken?"

Sorry for being so flippant, but you're are dead wrong. I have EVERY BASIS for inferring that how you handle a firearm is unsafe. And while you may be a nice guy in person, you couldn't pay me to stand next to you on a firing line. We are talking about guns here - not pottery, not basket weaving.

You, like me, are a human. We make mistakes. We train to minimize the impact of those mistakes. You know this.
 
Most of the real world courses out there don't teach holster use - they assume that you can lift the black thing out of the little plastic holder without putting your booger flicker on the bang switch. If you can't, they kick you out. I'll watch someone I don't know draw from a holster, especially if I don't like what I see about them in their gear - selection and placement can tell you a metric buttload about who's who in the jungle. It's my job to be aware of who and what is going on around me - not the other guy, and not the RO. I'll offer help if they are defective, if they accept, great if not, I'm gone. not my problem. I'd shoot on the line with any of the guys here who've had enough training and experience to realize pulling a gun out of a holster doesn't require another layer of nanny state crap forced down anyone's neck.
 
So you asked me to explain something to you that you already know and are adamant you know. And you say your credentials are valid, that you have 150+ hours of professional firearms training, but see no value in proper holster training.

You're trolling, TDC. You are trying to get me to say something so you can find a loose thread and start tugging.
I gave you the index of topics we cover as part of basic training. You don't really want anything more.
We both know this so let's move on.

I'm not trolling. I'm looking for validation to the set of "protocols" your range teaches. I will ask again, please answer the questions I posted earlier regarding nd's and the use of cover as they relate to keeping your finger off the trigger and sights/muzzle pointed at something you're comfortable with destroying?? You posted that garbage now support it.

Like enefgee said, you can learn a lot about someone by the gear they run and how they set it up. I see plenty of validity in training. If you've seen any of my posts you'd know I'm about as pro training as it gets. My point is that anyone who can follow the fundamental four can SAFELY draw from a holster. It likely won't be pretty or efficient but its safe. Same way most can shoulder a rifle chicken wing and bladed stance, use the first joint and slap the trigger safely. Its not efficient but its safe.

Tdc
 
Just let it go guys. He really has that "liberal" like mentality of "need courses" otherwise people can't learn on their own.

He's entitled to his wrong opinion. But it is his.

Most courses/classes I've taken have never "trained" anybody to use a holster. But like I said. Everybody practices it.

And I go with the mantra like the rest. I'll watch a shooter and base my opinion on them then. No need for "have you taken propped courses" garbage.

I have gone through the DPL holster "check" and it is no way a instructional course, but a safety check.

If that's the requirement for his group all the power to them, and I like many would like to hear the rationalization for it, but honestly. To each their own.

As for watching people's gear/placement. Well. I me too elite with my mall ninja elitness for people to gauge my super ninja profficiency. And for whatever I am not good at. At least I look scary enough to scary the party's off the miLfs. /lol
 
Alright TDC - Since you asked so nicely, I'll play one more time. You asked about the use of cover and how it relates to using a holster safely. Here goes:

In order to achieve the highest probability of safety, when approaching low cover, with your firearm holstered, you should:

A - Draw the firearm BEFORE kneeling behind the cover
B - Kneel behind the cover and THEN draw your firearm
C - It doesn't matter, do whatever is fastest

Best practices in holster training says the answer is always A. Some would argue get behind that cover first cause the bad guy is shooting at you. However holster instructors will point out the fact that if a bad guy is shooting at you, you are in a high stress situation and bad things are far more likely to happen in high stress situations. You can forget things like ACTS and PROVE and this can have serious consequences.

If you had kneeled and then drawn, there is a high probability that at least one of your legs is forward of the gun and holster - this is simple body mechanics, one of your knees is forward of your waist. If you were to hit the trigger in that draw, you could easily shoot yourself in the leg. So the best practice is to reduce/eliminate that risk by teaching shooters to draw BEFORE they kneel and not the other way around.

Now you are no doubt going to say that if you had just followed ACTS and PROVE it would accomplish the same thing so the training is unnecessary (I read your mind there, didn't I). And your holster instructor is going to agree with you and then point out that we just said this was a high stress situation and that you are human and capable of making a mistake and that only a total phukking idiot doesn't stack the deck in his favour when possible (I'll assume you agree with this). Adopting this best practice reduces risk and the probability that you will accidentally shoot yourself so why wouldn't you do it?

Further to this, there is a second reason why we would draw BEFORE kneeling and that is efficiency. What if a shot presents itself before you are fully behind cover? Does it not make more sense to be prepared to return fire as soon as possible? To have the firearm comfortably welded to your hand as soon as possible? We have a second benefit to this best practice, beyond the realm of safety.

Now, I'll warn you now, if you start debating this best practice, we are done. You don't get to ask me for a textbook answer (you are free to validate this with any holster instructor you know) and then say you disagree with the textbook, especially since you already admitted to not believing in holster training and you are a believer in ACTS and PROVE and this practice is simply an extension of that.

There's your example. Holster training is filled with these type of best practices that keep people from injuring themselves and others. And while some, most or even ALL of them may come down to extensions of ACTS and PROVE, using a holster introduces so many more things to think about, it only makes sense to focus on reducing risk and complexity. Of course, the training then advances to making these actions smooth and unconsciously competent.

Given your 150+ hours of training I would have thought this would be very obvious to you. Am I wrong?
 
Just let it go guys. He really has that "liberal" like mentality of "need courses" otherwise people can't learn on their own.

He's entitled to his wrong opinion. But it is his.

Most courses/classes I've taken have never "trained" anybody to use a holster. But like I said. Everybody practices it.

And I go with the mantra like the rest. I'll watch a shooter and base my opinion on them then. No need for "have you taken propped courses" garbage.

I have gone through the DPL holster "check" and it is no way a instructional course, but a safety check.

If that's the requirement for his group all the power to them, and I like many would like to hear the rationalization for it, but honestly. To each their own.

As for watching people's gear/placement. Well. I me too elite with my mall ninja elitness for people to gauge my super ninja profficiency. And for whatever I am not good at. At least I look scary enough to scary the party's off the miLfs. /lol

You are not worth the time.
Good luck - one last tip, you might want to pack a first aid kit in your range bag. :)
 
This is funny - while TDC does compete, it's not his primary focus, like many of those that you're arguing with, he approaches shooting as a martial art. So competition rules and standards are one way of doing things, they aren't the only way. Remember, "best practices" tend to go for a sh*t as soon as Mr Murphy, who runs the two way range, decides the cease fire is over. Otherwise no one would practice weak hand only reloads, under time.
 
There were no MLP's regarding holsters and their use on the urban ops course either. At least during my stay at the infantry school during '08-09. The instructors just walked around giving people their own quiffs during the range portion. Even the JTF2 operator that was one of them wasn't as absolute as you are. But what do they know?
 
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