Looking at first AR. Any suggestions,

Rootzee said:
Furthermore, please explain what's bad about Norc, WW, Olympic? I honestly have not heard anything bad about WW, and extremely mixed reviews of Norc and Olympic.
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A lot of people bash the norc because of either the finish or the fact that its Chinese. I think deep down a lot of people resent the fact that a $700 norc shoots as well as their $2000 gun.
 
http://www.irunguns.ca/store/rifles-for-sale-canada?product_id=413

Palmetto State armory guns are supposed to be quite good, this is sub 1k, with optic and backup sights, personally that dot is a pile of crap, but the rear irons is a nice feature, they also have a bare rifle for 850. Give them a call, also there are a couple of nice core15s on the ee.

Another option is the sig m400. Good rifle from what I have been reading.

ILLUSIVE said:
A lot of people bash the norc because of either the finish or the fact that its Chinese. I think deep down a lot of people resent the fact that a $700 norc shoots as well as their $2000 gun.
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I have heard that statement more than once. Can you quantify that statement for me please? What do you mean shoots as well? Are you speaking on reliability front? Durability front? accuracy wise? If so to what extent was this test done to?
 
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I have shot a PSA and a DD Ar-15. I find no major difference in the two. In fact I found the PSA trigger better than the DD trigger, and the PSA seemed a little tighter. That is my opinion on the limited use I've had with both. My opinion may change is I used them more. My co worker bought the PSA w/ Optic from IRG. He got a Vortex Strike Fire with his, and it works well.
 
r34skyline said:
http://www.irunguns.ca/store/rifles-for-sale-canada?product_id=413

Palmetto State armory guns are supposed to be quite good, this is sub 1k, with optic and backup sights, personally that dot is a pile of crap, but the rear irons is a nice feature, they also have a bare rifle for 850. Give them a call, also there are a couple of nice core15s on the ee.

Another option is the sig m400. Good rifle from what I have been reading.



I have heard that statement more than once. Can you quantify that statement for me please? What do you mean shoots as well? Are you speaking on reliability front? Durability front? accuracy wise? If so to what extent was this test done to?
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Sure, in my experience accuracy is more of a shooter issue than the firearm itself, give me a norc or a dd and my groups will be the same, and I would imagine that would hold true for most shooters. I have had no issues with the reliability of my norcs, no broken parts, fte or ftf. One has seen a 1000 rounds, the other 2000. Is it as nice to look at as a us made gun, no but it never bothered me.
If you can afford a more expensive ar go for it, however with the norc selling for just over $500 for me it's a no brainer, if I wanted to spend $2000+ on a modern rifle it would be a non-restricted one.
 
ILLUSIVE said:
Sure, in my experience accuracy is more of a shooter issue than the firearm itself, give me a norc or a dd and my groups will be the same, and I would imagine that would hold true for most shooters. I have had no issues with the reliability of my norcs, no broken parts, fte or ftf. One has seen a 1000 rounds, the other 2000. Is it as nice to look at as a us made gun, no but it never bothered me.
If you can afford a more expensive ar go for it, however with the norc selling for just over $500 for me it's a no brainer, if I wanted to spend $2000+ on a modern rifle it would be a non-restricted one.
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Not to be rude, but 3000 rounds between 2 rifles is not exactly what would be classified as an extensive test. Unless it was done over a few weeks, I am not sure what timeframe you put those rounds through your gun. As for off shoulder accuracy, no arguements it comes down to the shooter.

If that's all you were going to shoot over a long timeframe I don't disagree a norc will serve you just as well as a knights or a 416. To a high volume shooter, it may be different. There are guys on this forum that puts 10k+ rounds through their guns every year. They tell a different story.

It comes down to what you want to do with it. You want something that will look like an ar and serve you for 500-1k a year or maybe less, sure a norc will probably serve you well. If you shoot harder, from what I have witnessed, they are definitely not on par with any of the us brands except the low end dpms or nea etc.
 
r34skyline said:
Not to be rude, but 3000 rounds between 2 rifles is not exactly what would be classified as an extensive test. Unless it was done over a few weeks, I am not sure what timeframe you put those rounds through your gun. As for off shoulder accuracy, no arguements it comes down to the shooter.

If that's all you were going to shoot over a long timeframe I don't disagree a norc will serve you just as well as a knights or a 416. To a high volume shooter, it may be different. There are guys on this forum that puts 10k+ rounds through their guns every year. They tell a different story.

It comes down to what you want to do with it. You want something that will look like an ar and serve you for 500-1k a year or maybe less, sure a norc will probably serve you well. If you shoot harder, from what I have witnessed, they are definitely not on par with any of the us brands except the low end dpms or nea etc.
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True it's not extensive testing. However compared to some other brands which have had numerous and early failures(like right out of the box) the norc stands up well. If I was shooting thousands of rounds per year I wouldn't bother with a complete ar and would build one to my desired spec. It all depends on what you want out of it. The beauty of the ar is its modularity, I can add different triggers, barrels , free float hand guard, ect. I am curious what issues you have seen with the norc as the round count climbs so I can better know what preventative maintenance might be required.
 
ILLUSIVE said:
True it's not extensive testing. However compared to some other brands which have had numerous and early failures(like right out of the box) the norc stands up well. If I was shooting thousands of rounds per year I wouldn't bother with a complete ar and would build one to my desired spec. It all depends on what you want out of it. The beauty of the ar is its modularity, I can add different triggers, barrels , free float hand guard, ect. I am curious what issues you have seen with the norc as the round count climbs so I can better know what preventative maintenance might be required.
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Numerous fte, I would advise on spare extractors and firing pins. Haven't seen any bust firing pins but I have heard of it. The rest should work if it already is. And swap buffer springs as the rounds go up.
 
84wh1 said:
Hey guys. I'm gonna get some back pay from work soon and am looking into getting anew toy. I recently posted another question asking people for recommendations however I never included the AR in that list. Originally I wanted to stay clear of restricted weapons, however I feel a change of heart coming along.

Anyways, I'm looking for any suggestions on an entry level AR. Something for under 1000$.. I was looking into that LEO deal on the S&W mp15 sport until I realized that the upper has no forward assist or dust cover (a deal breaker for me). So, other than the DA or Norinco (not interested in either), anyone have any suggestions on an AR for just under 1k$?

Thanks
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If you are LEO, NEA has an IOP program and you can get a gun for under 1k before tax.
 
ILLUSIVE said:
A lot of people bash the norc because of either the finish or the fact that its Chinese. I think deep down a lot of people resent the fact that a $700 norc shoots as well as their $2000 gun.
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Nothing is necessarily bad about them, they're still guns and they still shoot bullets. My opinion is based on quality control/assurance standards and the fact that most AR "manufacturers" are not manufacturing; they are slapping parts together. In addition to QA/QC, the companies I mentioned tend to provide a lesser quality of customer service. I took a tour of the Oly arms factory about 5 years ago. Barrels and upper receivers were awaiting assembly sitting in buckets and being knocked around, the guide couldn't answer when I asked him if they make everything in house and who qaulifies their workers. Their benches were messy with tools lying around and the whole shop was sort of chaotic. The WW guns that I have handled appear to have a blah quality finish and lightly staked carrier keys.

Like I said, they're still guns and are fine for plinking. I prefer to think of the AR as a fighting rifle and a professional's tool, I lean towards high quality guns with a reputation of performing at high round counts (1000 rounds is not high BTW). Guns from lower end "manufacturers" using large numbers of batch produced outsourced parts run into issues because of what an engineer would call "stacking tolerances".

If you built a Honda civic with parts made by random people with little to no fitting or standards then it might drive down the road fine. But.....take it on the highway and bring it up to 150km/hr and you might just notice some issues.

I don't resent cheaper guns, in fact, I love them. But you need to be aware of the issues that arrise when one wishes to shoot more or accessorize down the road. People who buy Norcs might love them but I had a horrible experience the first and only time I shot one. The gun in question had no detent machined into the upper for the charging handle to lock into. Every round fired would shoot the handle into my face and it almost broke my nose the first time. The owner is now stuck with a rifle that is horrible to shoot, that needs a new upper and, he can't sell because no one would buy it. I just think buying quality first provides shooters with a better experience and sets them up for the future in terms of taking classes and maybe even competition use.

To each their own, not all of us can afford higher end stuff; being armed with some background knowledge combined with the ability to ignore gun salesman BS will help this guy make an informed purchase. There are plenty of well priced ARs that are well built by reputable companies, Stag and DD come to mind.

In no particular order, this is what I mainly look for;

1. Properly staked carrier key. I find that this is a great litmus test of attention to detail, it may seem small but it isn't;
2. Type of and HPT/MPI inspected barrel. What's the twist rate? I like 1/7;
3. Shot peened and HPT/MPI tested Bolt;
4. Proper threads on everything;
5. Fit and finish;
6. Quality trigger;
7. Does it have any proprietary parts or is all "mil-spec"?;
8. Has an agency of any sort purchased anything from this company?;
9. Mil-spec buffer tube with a staked castle nut;
10. M4 feed ramps.
 
Simply put as QOR has said, buy LMT or DD and never look back. KAC and Noveske are good but accuracy wise and reliability with all the features, LMT and DD is YOU GET MORE THAN YOU PAID FOR kinda deal. If you really want, you can do what I did and that's get a Shrubmaster lower and I slapped on a DD upper and voila, it does everything... oh and a Geiselle trigger to boot!
Well worth doing your research and of course spending more usually gets you something you will keep for the rest of your life.
 
The Armalite's mentioned earlier in the EE are a good bet at that price(as long as it is not an Eagle Arms lower...my opinion). Also decent on a budget are Spikes Tactical (from Questar) and Palmetto State Armory through IRG(especially their FN cold hammer forged stuff, which is rare here...but forget about their PTAC stuff). Or go mid range and get DD or LMT. The higher end stuff takes an appreciation of the AR platform to justify the price (but dang they get nice...). I'm still waiting for the HK 10.4's to make an appearance in the MR223A1 line...then I'm sold.
 
Petamocto said:
I know about policeordnance.com which extends their police Gock discount to military. Is there an AR15 equivalent to this plan, for a dealer that extends discounts to CAF?
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North Eastern Arms (NEA) Has an IOP program for active LEO and military. I ended up building my own with parts i liked. I paid over 1500 for it but its a very high end unit that can test it.
 
No to hijack the thread, but Police Ordnance is no longer the Canadian distributor for Glock, and are discontinuing the IOP program once current stock sells out. They're already pretty much out of Gen 4s, and only have a few others left.

Too bad... It was a good way to get a Glock at a GREAT price.

Not sure who the new distributor is, or if they will have an IOP program.
 
I'm not a Norc fan, but Can Am is selling them for $599 with a quad rail (shipping in) and Marstar has them for $529 with regular handguards... At that price everyone should have one!
 
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