0.25 MOA right out of the box!

[Leeper]

I always remember the morning, about forty years ago, a friend of mine, Bob Forslund, pulled in and wanted to show me his new rifle. He had won a Shien DGA action at a match the previous year and had built a 6ppc on it. Anyway, he pulled the rifle out before the match and said, "watch this". He then fired five shots into a little less than .2" We BS'd a bit, then he shot another group just like the first. When the match started, he went ahead and shot 5 groups which averaged just slightly over .2 moa. Now THAT was a .25 moa rifle.
The guy who pulls an ancient piece of target out of his wallet and shows me a cluster of shots (with a flyer off to the side , with a "X" drawn through it), probably does not have a .25 moa rifle.
In the intervening years, I have seen a lot of very good factory rifles and many of then shot very well but none have been a true 1/4 moa rifle. I've seen 3/8 but not 1/4.

 

[cycbb486]

I always remember the morning, about forty years ago, a friend of mine, Bob Forslund, pulled in and wanted to show me his new rifle. He had won a Shien DGA action at a match the previous year and had built a 6ppc on it. Anyway, he pulled the rifle out before the match and said, "watch this". He then fired five shots into a little less than .2" We BS'd a bit, then he shot another group just like the first. When the match started, he went ahead and shot 5 groups which averaged just slightly over .2 moa. Now THAT was a .25 moa rifle.
The guy who pulls an ancient piece of target out of his wallet and shows me a cluster of shots (with a flyer off to the side , with a "X" drawn through it), probably does not have a .25 moa rifle.
In the intervening years, I have seen a lot of very good factory rifles and many of then shot very well but none have been a true 1/4 moa rifle. I've seen 3/8 but not 1/4.

Mr.Lepper, I think you hit the nail on the head.

To those that believe there is a .25 MOA rifle out of a box.
Why would those of us who dabble in Short Range Benchrest spend the thousands we do on the rifles we have? How many FACTORY rifles are seen shot at this level?

Nothing more to say than that. Let me guess, the flaming will begin.

Calvin

 

[R005t3r]

I have a Tikka TAC A1 6.5 CM, 20" barrel that does what you are asking. Hitting steady 5's at 600m too.

 

[Yang.Dongbin]

Like OP, I don't want to set up/build a special one, and shoot very carefully to get some good-looking target paper, then show it to others. Just want to get a decent factory rifle I can afford, in military caliber, 308 win or 223, use normal reloading material(that means no berger bullet, no palma case .etc), to see what I can get. Following is my experience.

Owned an AI AWP, fixed stock, no muzzle break, shouldered barrel. No modification as far as I know. The target comes with it is like this, was told it's a five shot group.

I loaded some rounds to sigh-in and fire-form brass. An experienced guru used to two rounds sigh-in and then shot a five rounds gourp, this is the target,
(you can see what kind of reloading material was used, I'm a cheap guy, lol)

During my load development, testing oal, I shot six five-shot groups, each has different oal, following is the target paper. I do have some other targets, but it's not in five five-shot groups.

Few years later, when I got some chances to shoot this baby again. At that time, I'm not only flinch, but can't load good ammo either, can't even control the run-out to below 6 thousandth, really sad. but this baby didn't fail me, still under half moa no problem. I didn't measure them, because I don't think it's necessary. Here is two normally five five-shot groups looks like, and a 3 five-shot groups.

Conclusion: No way I'm a quarter moa shooter, and my target papers show that. But I believe this baby is a quarter moa capable rifle, if in a good hand, and not cheap on reloading material, like I do.

 

[Leeper]

I'd be pretty happy with that. It's pretty close to 1/4. Close enough that a 1/4 inch group is , if not expected, at least achievable.

 

[JEC]

I'd be pretty happy with that. It's pretty close to 1/4. Close enough that a 1/4 inch group is , if not expected, at least achievable.

Db...Leeper is right and you are not far off. Your shooting has come a long way since since the day we put that rig on paper. Recoil makes those 308’s a challenge to hold much tighter than you are currently getting. Want a 30 cal that is consistent, build a 30BR.

 

[Yang.Dongbin]

Db...Leeper is right and you are not far off. Your shooting has come a long way since since the day we put that rig on paper. Recoil makes those 308’s a challenge to hold much tighter than you are currently getting. Want a 30 cal that is consistent, build a 30BR.

Great to see you, Jim. Time flies so fast. Always remember the range orientition, the reloading tuition, those range times, so much fun, lol
30BR is a great great choice, low recoil, long barrel life, easy to tune, so many good thing. Always regret I didn't order a 30BR, when I ordered my custom barrel. can't stop kicking myself, lol.

My dilemma is, I want a rifle which is good or compromised at all distance. too greedy, lol. My plan is using transonic stable bullets, I know it will hurt performance, but it can reach a mile.(it did, with another 308 rifle though, year 2017 Edson range, the right gong). for shorter distance, like 100m-300m in our range, it still perform good enough.

 

[9.3 Hunter]

alot of xbolts do.......my 3 Tikkas do... my Rem customs need reloading......

I wouldnt accept more than .25moa in my hunting rifles, and have never had any issues reloading to it.

 

[JEC]

Db... my next build is a 6.5 SLR (sporter) which I hope will hold sub-1/2 MOA. But, experience says it is more realistic to expect 1/2 MOA aggs from custom sporters.

 

[Pesky ab]

Conclusion: No way I'm a quarter moa shooter, and my target papers show that. But I believe this baby is a quarter moa capable rifle, if in a good hand, and not cheap on reloading material, like I do.[/QUOTE]

That is a great shooting rifle and I’m sure it does all that you need it to , which is all that matters , no disrespect but how do we get to “ it’s a 1/4 moa capable rifle “when it’s showing 1/2 moa + and even that’s a guess as nothing has been measured, this is why we have competitions , everything gets real in a hurry and all the myths and speculation is put to rest.
I have not seen any factory rifle shoot 1/4 moa groups , I’m sure it would be a very rare one , I have how ever , heard about a great many of them.

 

[JEC]

Be interesting to follow the results of a SBR match if forestocks were restricted to a max width of 2”, shot at 100M, no wind flags ... using a rifles chambered to 308 Win. ...

 

[BRDAVISAUTOREPAIR]

Reloading has helped achieve several rewarding results in that area of .25. More important than the gun I think. I start with a quality rifle and work my way toward accuracy. I never found any gun that would shoot 1/4 inch without load building. With this approach, same hole at 200 and under 1 minute at 875 is very reachable. Only a few days this year have we had conditions to get these results so even more to consider is weather, celling, light etc.... Its addictive for sure and there are frustrating days, just record everything for reflection. So start with a quality gun and work your way up. Savage's highest end stuff is great.

 

[Leeper]

Be interesting to follow the results of a SBR match if forestocks were restricted to a max width of 2”, shot at 100M, no wind flags ... using a rifles chambered to 308 Win. ...

To what purpose? You want to see just how far you can handicap the rifle and/or shooter before the results reflect this? I can tell you that one of the very few stock, factory rifles which would shoot close to 1/4, that I have seen, belonged to Al Mirdoch. This was a Remington 700 BDL Varmint, in 308 Winchester. He shot this in factory configuration, in hunter class and in Light Varmint class. Although he never fired a .250 aggregate with it, he did shoot numerous groups well under .250 moa. It is very difficult for anyone to shoot a ten pound 308, over the course of a full match, without tossing a shot away due to fatigue from recoil.
The very best light 308 I ever had was a 40XBR which I had re-barrelled, with a 14 twist Hart barrel, to 308. It was a 10 1/2 pound rifle and I did fire one aggregate which came very close to .250 and this included the last group which had a shot out which made it over a half inch. Plainly, this was not a factory rifle.
One big change in the short range BR arena has been in the method of shooting. Forty or fifty years ago, shooters would typically fire a sighter or two, then go to the record target and fire the group. So, the shooter would check wind flags or other indicators for the first shot then fire subseqent shots based on what they thought changes might indicate. Later on, it became more common for shooter to go back to the sighter to verify the effect of a change in conditions. Also, more shooters endeavour to get all shots away quickly. This all works pretty well but, I can promise, there ain't anybody who is going to employ either technique very well with a 10 1/2 pound 308.

 

[guntech]

To what purpose? You want to see just how far you can handicap the rifle and/or shooter before the results reflect this? I can tell you that one of the very few stock, factory rifles which would shoot close to 1/4, that I have seen, belonged to Al Mirdoch. This was a Remington 700 BDL Varmint, in 308 Winchester. He shot this in factory configuration, in hunter class and in Light Varmint class. Although he never fired a .250 aggregate with it, he did shoot numerous groups well under .250 moa. It is very difficult for anyone to shoot a ten pound 308, over the course of a full match, without tossing a shot away due to fatigue from recoil.
The very best light 308 I ever had was a 40XBR which I had re-barrelled, with a 14 twist Hart barrel, to 308. It was a 10 1/2 pound rifle and I did fire one aggregate which came very close to .250 and this included the last group which had a shot out which made it over a half inch. Plainly, this was not a factory rifle.
One big change in the short range BR arena has been in the method of shooting. Forty or fifty years ago, shooters would typically fire a sighter or two, then go to the record target and fire the group. So, the shooter would check wind flags or other indicators for the first shot then fire subseqent shots based on what they thought changes might indicate. Later on, it became more common for shooter to go back to the sighter to verify the effect of a change in conditions. Also, more shooters endeavour to get all shots away quickly. This all works pretty well but, I can promise, there ain't anybody who is going to employ either technique very well with a 10 1/2 pound 308.

I remember that rifle of Al's. I was working at Barotto's when he bought it and I shot at Namaka with Al... I think I bedded the rifle and did the trigger. He shot a record small group with that rifle as well. It was a real tack driver and Al could shoot.

 

[Pesky ab]

Be interesting to follow the results of a SBR match if forestocks were restricted to a max width of 2”, shot at 100M, no wind flags ... using a rifles chambered to 308 Win. ...[/QUOTE
Not sure of the relevance of this comment ,op never mentioned any limitations on caliber , rifle type or shooting discipline just asked for factory rifle that will shoot 1/4 moa , if there was such a rifle, it would already be competing on the line some where, almost any rifle will have a lucky group that will be 1/4 moa or better now and then ,but they are just that ,lucky , they won’t agg

 

[JEC]

Absolutely agree with you Pesky, I doubt if there are any true factory rigs capable of repeatable 1/4 MOA groups. My comment was directed more to your suggestion that one needs to compete for a reality check...as I suspect the sub .25”aggs/@100yds/from a 6PPC with a flat bottomed 3.5” wide fore stock ...would grow enough that everybody would share the taste of humble pie if required to use the typical sporter style rig chambered in 308 that we see at our local ranges.
I think it was last year that I wanted to experience the mystique of SBR so I bought a BR stock and a Farley rest. There was a bit of a learning curve but after a month or so I was able to occasionally agg (4 groups) sub .25” @ 100m (no flags) with both 30BR and 6 Dasher barrels screwed on a Barnard S. I was briefly tempted to try to take it further and chamber a 6 PPC ... but lost interest and went back to primarily shooting sporter stuff. I don’t mind spending money on builds but can’t see crawling into the money sucking hole that competition would lead me down. I do follow some of the International Benchrest Shooters results, mostly to keep up with the equipment being used.
Now, as a matter of fact, although I know they must be out there, have never seen a factory rifle that retails for less than $4K (24+ caliber) shoot repeatable sub 1/2MOA (5 shot) groups. That should get some reaction

 

[Leeper]

I remember that rifle of Al's. I was working at Barotto's when he bought it and I shot at Namaka with Al... I think I bedded the rifle and did the trigger. He shot a record small group with that rifle as well. It was a real tack driver and Al could shoot.

I thought that was probably you who bedded it. I had the same model, which I won at the Canadian Super Shoot in '78, I think. It shot an honest 3/8 but wasn,t equal to that one of Al's.

 

[Pesky ab]

Absolutely agree with you Pesky, I doubt if there are any true factory rigs capable of repeatable 1/4 MOA groups. My comment was directed more to your suggestion that one needs to compete for a reality check...as I suspect the sub .25”aggs/@100yds/from a 6PPC with a flat bottomed 3.5” wide fore stock ...would grow enough that everybody would share the taste of humble pie if required to use the typical sporter style rig chambered in 308 that we see at our local ranges.
I think it was last year that I wanted to experience the mystique of SBR so I bought a BR stock and a Farley rest. There was a bit of a learning curve but after a month or so I was able to occasionally agg (4 groups) sub .25” @ 100m (no flags) with both 30BR and 6 Dasher barrels screwed on a Barnard S. I was briefly tempted to try to take it further and chamber a 6 PPC ... but lost interest and went back to primarily shooting sporter stuff. I don’t mind spending money on builds but can’t see crawling into the money sucking hole that competition would lead me down. I do follow some of the International Benchrest Shooters results, mostly to keep up with the equipment being used.
Now, as a matter of fact, although I know they must be out there, have never seen a factory rifle that retails for less than $4K (24+ caliber) shoot repeatable sub 1/2MOA (5 shot) groups. That should get some reaction

Agreed

As for Sbr ,I see sportier rigs at the range that have way more money in them than any of my competition stuff , once you have a capable rifle in competition it’s just bullets and powder, it lends itself to those who want to buy all the latest gear and those who just want to shoot the best aggs they can and not spend a lot , guys win with both

 

[JEC]

My understanding of the costs involved with being SBr competitive would require the annual purchase/chamber of a minimum of three barrels (more if one isn’t a hummer)...probably a bore scope ...assuming you already have a good quality front rest/rear bag ($2K), wind flags, Lapua brass, match bullets...and then there are the travel and accommodation costs, not only in Alberta but outside... A friend shoots F class (a month or so ago in Sask, a couple of weeks ago in Kamloops). Competition = Time & money. There is a reason not many 30 year-olds are posing for pictures in the winners circle
OP- sorry for the derail but I think your question has been answered. Quarter minute capable factory rigs are about as common as pink unicorns.

 

[Yang.Dongbin]

Db... my next build is a 6.5 SLR (sporter) which I hope will hold sub-1/2 MOA. But, experience says it is more realistic to expect 1/2 MOA aggs from custom sporters.

Can't wait to see it. 6.5SLR, interesting.

Now, as a matter of fact, although I know they must be out there, have never seen a factory rifle that retails for less than $4K (24+ caliber) shoot repeatable sub 1/2MOA (5 shot) groups. That should get some reaction

my friend, If TRG counts, kind of remember I post a 5x5 target paper on our website, outdoorsman.

Reloading has helped achieve several rewarding results in that area of .25. More important than the gun I think. I start with a quality rifle and work my way toward accuracy. I never found any gun that would shoot 1/4 inch without load building. With this approach, same hole at 200 and under 1 minute at 875 is very reachable. Only a few days this year have we had conditions to get these results so even more to consider is weather, celling, light etc.... Its addictive for sure and there are frustrating days, just record everything for reflection. So start with a quality gun and work your way up. Savage's highest end stuff is great.

Totally agree on both Reloading part and Savage. huge savage fun here.