0.3" Groups? Pull My Other Finger, It Has Bells On It...

You giving away all my secrets again VViking??

vviking said:
Gootch said:
it happens to be
Forgive me my trespasses friend Gootch, but the last time I shot your pigster, it was a 26" VSSF. :p :slap: :cheers:



"I like the 155s. BCs on both bullets are very close to 0.500 with the 155 SC actually at 0.508. Seating depth is arbitrary since the throats are indeed long and you will never seat one out far enough in a factory rifle to even approach the lands.

I pay particular attention to neck tension. Use a collet die and benchrest seater and roll every round. Call me anal.

I am also working with a 20 barrel on a Remi 700 and we had issues with that concerning grouping. Eventually it was determined that it needs to be bedded, however, we got it to .6 " with handloads that also consisted of 46 grains of Varget but topped with a 155 Amax. I expect this one to go to sub half MOA as well."


All kidding aside, this member and his rifle can really shoot. .3 MOA is common, and distant gongs clang with boring regularity. :rockOn:
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Mystic Precision said:
Maybe a shooter issue here.

Jerry
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There, fixed it for ya.

After reading the comments by the OP I'm thinking it's the shooter not the rifle. As others have said, optimize what you have and the results should come your way.

Jerry, since I fisr came online in 1996 all I've heard about is about Remington's QC "issues". I've owned many 700's and haven't had a performance issue with any of them. Like your beloved Savages, lemons can and will happen. Of the (4) Savage's I've owned (3) of them have had issues (two Mk2's & one 112FV). The other, a M10 McMillan, I sold before I had a chance to shoot it so I have no idea on that one. Ha!

Like others have said, try known quantity ammunition and load combo's to get a decent baseline performance. Check the stock for its known deficiencies and try a higher magnification scope. A 3x9 isn't exactly adequate for your intended purposes.
 
QC issues are occuring for ALL makes and models. That is the nature of producing to a price point.

We just happen to get to see the duds when owners need help to resolve problems. There are lots of Rems purchased and we see Rems needing help. What's the percentage vs actual numbers sold? No idea but more now then normal/historical as a gut feeling.

Sold more Rem triggers in the last couple of years then before. Odds and sods not working right, falling off or breaking. Higher then the norm/past - no idea. No one keeps stats. Again, but the gut -o-meter says, things aren't as good as they should or could be.

In that same time, I have played with ALOT of Savages, Stevens and now a few Axis. Over the same period of time, the number that had issues I experienced was zero. Were they perfect custom out of the box gems, not in your life. BUT they all did their intended job and with some TLC, provided performance well beyond their pay grade.

Am I unique? Given the enormous surge in consumer demand for Savage worldwide, I doubt my experience in unique.

Am I unique in my view on Rem QC? Well, a few minutes with google or visiting US forums will tell the tale.

It truly is a pity that such a storic brand has to rationalise production QC on any forum. Should be a given that you buy something from big green and you will be happy. That certainly was my impression years back with rifles built circa 80's and 90's. Were they perfect, of course not, but no one doubted their ability to do the intended job.

Is there the same consumer confidence today?

And to be fair, the same time that Rem was truly at the top of their game, Savage was a POS nearing bankruptcy with a litany of QC issues - bent barrels and all. Savage rebuilt, retooled, reimagined - today, me thinks they are doing just fine.

Will Rem corporate see the light of day? I guess their new plastic fantastic is an answer of sorts....

Jerry
 
Well it may indeed be the shooter but I would bet against it. I have almost this exact same set up on a Ruger No.1 Varminter in 25-06: 3x9 scope, bull barrel, sand bags, etc etc. That gun goes .5~.75" all day long with Yours Truly at the trigger. You guys here would probably shoot it better. I actually HOPE it is a 'shooter' issue because that is something I can deal with.

I am going up to 180 grainers just for chits and giggles this weekend - and if that doesn't do anything (I am pretty much resigned to 1.5" groups) - the gloves will come off and I will get seriously ugly at the reloading bench. I may be cutting corners that the old Ruger let me get away with and the Remington won't - who knows?

Not to start a dog fight - but I am pretty much with Jerry on this. I have seen objective chit reviews and complaints against Big Green at a higher rate than any other manufacturer out there with the possible exception of Marlin - and I think Remington owns Marlin now, doesn't it? I bought this rifle based on it's physique: it's short, fat and ugly - just like me! :) And as I said, all I want are MOA groups. If she can do an inch at 100 yards I am happier than a pig in the mud - whereas you precision guys would throw your guns in the garbage if they shot like that. I have to be careful with this gun - I am not afraid to pimp it, but it IS a working hunter first and foremost and it WILL be out in the rain, sleet, slush and mud and banging around in a case on the quad. I don't abuse my rifles but I don't pamper them either.

I may be polishing a turd here, but time will tell. Thank you again guys! I will keep you informed!
 
I'm not in the business of selling or making money of guns in any way but I've bought and sold a lot of them and written a fair number of reviews about firearms and various firearm accessories. Over the last five years I've owned six different models of Savage from .22LR through to .338 Lapua and five different Remingtons from .223 to .300 Win Mag and have shot numerous other Savages and Remingtons owned by friends and aquaintances so I have a feel for the offerings put forward by both makers. In general while I found the Savage rifles to be functionallly fine and more accurate than the price point would suggest the finish wasn't always great and on two rifles I had FTF with the Accutrigger. On the other hand the Remingtons seemed to me to be the better overall rifle even though the finsh on he SPS left something to be desired. So while I like both Savage and Remington I 'trust' ( for want of a better word )the Remington product more than I do the Savage.

Now nothing I've written should suggest that I won't buy another Savage in future but my preference will be for a Remington.
 
ive got my 700 that shot what it did above, with 1400+ rounds down the throat at that and a savage axis in 223, its a cheap little gun no doubt there but it shoots great and if im on my game with decent off the shelf 223 ammo itll hit moa for me all day long. i like them both, but when im ready to open my pockets, behind my wifes back, ill call jerry and have him put something fancy together for me based on his experience :D
 
And if they improved manufacturing and made 100% sure no defect ever got out, everybody would b*tch about the price and their sales would drop off so much that it would never pay for the investment.
There are instances that a few pennies or seconds would make all the difference, and that's often where companies are making their bets today as its all there is left to cut, maybe a few more troubles get out, maybe they get to stay in business and please the share holders.
 
SND said:
And if they improved manufacturing and made 100% sure no defect ever got out, everybody would b*tch about the price and their sales would drop off so much that it would never pay for the investment.
There are instances that a few pennies or seconds would make all the difference, and that's often where companies are making their bets today as its all there is left to cut, maybe a few more troubles get out, maybe they get to stay in business and please the share holders.
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Yep. Ya get what ya pay for. And that is what keeps me out of the precision game: I am no cheapskate...but my pockets just aren't deep enough to play with the big dogs in the sport. I shoot a lot off my hind feet, sling up occaisionally and I do alright. The average gunnut gas bag can't touch me and it takes a full blown competitor like you guys here to beat me - and I will give him a damn good run for his money under those conditions. I much prefer spending time shooting and annoying the other shooters than obsessing at the reloading bench.

;)

See ya on the range tomorrow!
 
The reality is neither a Savage nor Remington rifle, out of the box, is a precision rifle. They are mass produced factory rifles with tolerances that meet their requirements. Putting them in a fancy stock, painting them camouflage or puttng a $700 scope (and a bipod) on them is not going to help. Buying the "Tactical" model only means you got sucked into the marketing. there are unrealistic expectations created here because the tactical savage and tactical remington models get debated ad nauseum under the precision rifle forum with the flames being fanned by the merchant(s) that stand to profit most from selling the trinkets "guaranteed to make them shoot better and grow your hair back"

With bedding, trigger tuning and load development in the hands of a talented shooter, these guns are all capable of 1 MOA or better, and that is all they need and all they were designed for.

There is a reason BR shooters use custom barrels, most use custom actions and they use purpose-built optics: Factory barrels and guns are not accurate enough to win and they don't come in the calibers used to win. way too small of a market. Precision shooting takes three critical components: Precision load precision rifle and the precision SHOOTER. There again is a reason Tony Boyer, Carl Bernosky, David Tubb and Larry Bartholome win and it sure as hell isn;t because they bought a remington rifle and a vortex scope and painted them green.

Savage actions are clunky and sloppy. The bolt head system means you are stuck with a larger firing pin hole than you should have for many high pressure cartridges to get maximum results and performance. the barrel system is fine if you know what you are doing, but it is certainly no faster to change a barrel over a shouldered barrel system and you have to completely dismantle the gun. Remington actions off the shelf lack refinement and they are designed so that if you get them wet or dirty - like most north american hunters are apt to do, they will still work as a hunting rifle. They are not a BR action, but that does not mean they can't be made to be one.

The basic design is exceptional. It is very strong and it is safe. There again is a reason why virtually ALL custom actions are designed along the lines of a Remington.

I think Remington missed the boat by not offering a target action like Savage did. I think Remington missed the boat by giving up on single shot rifles. I think that Remington missed the boat by not offering a purpose-built palma/F-Class rifle like Savage did, but that only means their marketing department realizes "precision shooters" are such a SMALL segment of the over-all market, that it makes sense to put their efforts into where the money is.

while the pointless savage versus remington debate rages on, companies like Tikka and Browning make guns that shoot circles around both. Nobody can make any money selling Tikka and browning accessories because they don't exist so the don't get the press they deserve. You can extol the virtues of your favorite, be that Savage or Remington, but neither one produces true precision rifles. It is like standing in the vatican and debating whether Judism or islam is the better religeon.

My two favorite single shot actions are no longer made: the 40X and the XP XR100 actions. When I build guns, I need to find used or buy custom and right now Barnard is where I put my money. I don't use repeater actions for anything.
 
All true paperslayer ^.
Ever once in a while, a fellow can get lucky though.
The most recent Savage i played with was a ringer.
.3MOA, right out of the box with a cheap Bushnell tactical 10X mounted.
Group after group after group, day in day out, .3 ragged holes in the paper, or it was the conditions or shooter that failed if groups spread.

The exception that proves the rule, I guess.

.3's won't cut it in BR, agreed. A hellofa fun rifle, nonetheless.
:cheers:
 
In my opinion, there are different levels of precision. Not everybody can afford the 5,000+ rifles, nor do they want to. They are happy hunting for the tightest groups they can, be that 1.5 or .5 MOA, whatever. It's all about the hunt for precision. Not buying an ungodly expensive rifle for fractional increases ESPECIALLY when skill is FAR behind rifle. I'm fairly confident those that get fractional MOA's have had PLENTY of trigger time behind those cheap "precision" guns.

People need to back down about their high and mighty. I know this happens anywhere a keyboard humper can make huge claims, but everybody is in it for difference reasons. Not everybody is out competing but just enjoying a sunday afternoon plinking gongs or aiming at 1.05 squares.

For those reasons, I think the cheaper Savage / Remington make ideal guns. Customizable, within reach on cost (still not cheap), and most importantly fun.
 
Two more happy sub MOA savage shooters posting their results in this forum. Some very nice groups which can only improve with better load tuning and bedding.

YMMV.

Jerry

PS Always happy to make Rems shoot better.
 
Yeah Jerry,
The best part is: this .308 is a young member's very first rifle. He scrimped and saved, researched hard, and somehow found the extra $ to get that excellent H.S. stock. An officer cadet at RMC, his considerable shooting skills will no doubt serve him well as an artillery officer.
Like Shibby said ... "and most importantly fun."
 
Glenfilthie said:
Yep. Ya get what ya pay for.
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When it comes to the mass produced rifles, or just about anything mass produced really, the majority of the time we actually get more, to a lot more than we pay for. That's the magic of it, but as part of them managing to do that a few less than optimal products do get out. It's been very hard on manufacturers of consumer/commodity products to keep the prices down or lower them while all the overheads keep going up and its highly competitive. Glad the majority of my work is not consumer related.
 
Mystic Precision said:
Two more happy sub MOA savage shooters posting their results in this forum. Some very nice groups which can only improve with better load tuning and bedding.

YMMV.

Jerry

PS Always happy to make Rems shoot better.
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And you are only to happy to sell them what they need to help them along the way. perhaps you should have a forum all to your own! win win.
 
What a rather ironic and obtuse post.... I am sure you can tell me if I am using obtuse out of context.

How's your barrel business going?

The fact that I am a dealer is pretty darn obvious to anyone looking at the windows on my post. The fact that I am answering with relevant information is also obvious.

When I answer a post that is not relevant to the thread and/or self promoting in its entirety, you let us all know...

If you want, you can visit my dealer forum.... I am sure you can follow one of my links below.
Jerry

PS you might want to consider not using 2 monikers. Usually considered poor form on public forums....
 
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