1/4 MOA Challenge

Tomochan said:
I think anyone who shoots regularly will appreciate that 1/4 MOA at 300m is very, very, very hard to do. It requires a good rifle, good glass, good ammo and a good shooter to all be performing well on the given day. There is also a big difference between 1/4 or 1/2 or whatever MOA at 100m and maintaining that grouping at 300 - it ain't staight-line math that's for sure.

I'm sure we all get a bit irked at some of the posts ( see my post earlier tonight on the Black and Green Forum questioning claims that AR's can break 1/2 MOA without too much effort to see what I mean ) but, really, I think most people are just so excited that they had a great grouping that they want to post their success online and is there really a problem with that ? I know I have done so - the first time I put "5 inside a dime" with my TRG 22 I was over the moon. I'm still excited when, with that rifle, I do 5 shot groups in the .3's and want to tell other shooters as (for me at least) it requires concentration and for me to perform as well as I can. Can I do the same with my Savage 10FP in a Choate Stock ? Quite simply - NO, I cannot - looking thru my records here, the best I have done with that rifle is 1.305 at 300 yards (not meters) but I'm still pleased with that as it is sub half MOA with a relatively cheap rifle.

Do you all really want to be calling people out who have posted their possibly not to be repeated all time best groups ? Personally, I think it is in questionable taste and may reinforce a mistaken impression of precision shooters.

BTW - On Dec 5 last year at Mission Rod and Gun I shot a 0.372" (4 shot not 5 shot - long story) group with the TRG - have I repeated that ? Sadly, No but if I do I will feel OK about posting it on CGN as, in my fiftieth year I couldn't give a monkey's toss about being called on it - it will be what it will be but some newer shooters may feel reluctant to post their stuff for fear of 'calling out' which will be too bad.
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We've all posted some of our proudest moments, including yours truly. Not a thing wrong with that. My best posted group was 4 shots into .032" at 100m that I have yet to repeat, but then again, I rarely shoot my guns at 100 unless I am working up loads or doing barrel break in.

I applaud Maynard for doing his part to try and entice new shooters to the sport of F-Class/TR/F-TR the more the merrier, even if it does seem like he is "calling people out".

BTW....when are you coming back to Kamloops to shoot, or did we scare you off last time? :D
 
maynard said:
Here are the rules. Rifle must be an off the shelf rifle with original barrel. Must be shot from the prone position. You can use any rest except sandbags or a one piece rest. Bedded actions are allowed. Any scope.

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what is the defination of " off the shelf " rifle ?

i have a stw that came out of remingtons custom shop . ( i was told the first year they chambered stw's , they all came out of their custom shop ) .

i'm just curious
 
I'm going to try! Can't check dates till I get home ( it's a pain on the cell ). I know my new Savage can do it. :) I'm not sure about me though. I'm too much of a spaz to group more than 3 at a time.
 
CyaN1de said:
A short search netted these in a few minutes....not calling anyone out here but pmt did put up a challenge. :D And if anyone is embarrassed...you can thank pmt
1. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=478791

2. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4402744&postcount=4

3. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=479805&highlight=1/4+moa

4. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4476760&postcount=2

I was stopping at 3...but got carried away :runaway::runaway:
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Phew! what a relief none of mine were included in that. :dancingbanana:

I have had a few half inch groups at 100 and a couple of 2 1/4 inch groups at 300 with my bog standard stevens plus timney. Maynard could you make the challenge a little easier for folks like me that want to join in?

EDIT: bog standard means - "standard" -for all those that PM'ed me asking the question.
 
5 shots into 1/4 moa group or 10 shots into 1/2 moa.
Not really calling people out, just trying to get them away from the 100 yard line. In TR and F Class the shortest range we shoot in competition is 300 yards.
We have had guys come out with their new rifle with huge scope and tell me the thing will shoot 1/4 moa. We never see them again when some smuck shooting a target rifle with iron sights and a sling keeps them all in the bull while they are shooting inners and maggies.
 
Anyone who makes the claim that they can shoot quarter minute 5 shot groups from 300 yards, on demand, regardless of conditions hasn't been at this very long. I've got a nifty target rifle, and I can but together decent ammo, but there are few days I can shoot up to that rifle . . . particularly at ranges beyond 100.
 
Toomanyguns said:
I'm upset that none of mine were included.
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You have a custom made by ATRS. The thread is calling out the factory rifle users.

I hope I'm not a target here, I posted a 1/4 MOA group shot with my Remmy .308. BUT, I also said that its the first 1/4 MOA group in 3 years of shooting and has yet to be repeated.
 
Well Ill chime in here as one of my posts was mentioned. I am actually kinda surprised because unlike the rest at least I post the pics to prove it. I make sure to as a point. And as I said in the thread that is the best I've ever done. And yes my bone stock Stevens 200 has put up 1/4 MOA groups but I never said that was standard. Sub MOA yes that is pretty much what is. I have posted lots of pics to back it up as well. And Im not using a lead sled or the likes like some. I am using a bipod and a rear bag. Now I never try to talk s**t and always admit Im far from an expert. I have only been shooting rifles for about a year and probably have only put 400 rounds through my Stevens 200 - .223. Now as far as the challenge goes I would not have any issues giving it a try. I have never shot at 300 yards before. THe furthest Ive been able to get out was 200 yards which is the longest range available to me. So do I think I can shoot that well at 300 yards? I really doubt it. But I have 2 members on here who have seen me shoot 1/2 MOA groups(100y) on 2 separate occasions, and Im not talking about 1 group out of 100.
 
I had a Tikka Tactical that got me addicted to the pursuit of small groups, and 100 yard groups the size of a nickel were achievable on a fairly regular basis, but as I found out when I got into F-Class, that the best 100 yard rifle in the world is but one part of a very large equation when you take that gun and reach out.

It is my belief that there is absolutely nothing wrong with spending lots of time AT short range, because this is where you can work out the mechanical bugs by reducing the variables over which you have almost no control (wind, mirage aberrant gravitational surges;))

Mastering short range includes not only load development, but shooting technique, and all of this with a much reduced influence of environmental conditions.

Those that load-up and head to 1000 yards are setting themselves up for frustration and inevitably they under-appreciate the investment in short range practice for long range shooting.

I LOVED Maynard's comments! When we used to shoot 300M ISSF matches, both iron-sight and scoped shooters used the same targets/scoring and it was not uncommon for some of the excellent TR shooters to achieve scores that were better than shooters using scopes and bipods! These guys take that sport very seriously and I have an incredible admiration for some of the skill these guys have!

Lastly... when I load develop, I shoot small groups. If a gun won't group with two, it won't group with 20, BUT a 2 or 3 shot "group" is not really a group. You have my interest at 5 rounds, but I'm not convinced until you show me 15 or 20 rounds.
 
PMT, it would be difficult to asses our companies time and money devoted to promoting shooting, which involves, BR, FClass, TR, sponsoring Canadian Biathlon Team, Palma Team, smallbore matches and the likes of Alain Marion and new shooters. We also work with snipers and support the CISC. How about you?

Regards,

Peter
 
I would suggest that a greater disservice is done to shooters (particularly new ones) who may be disappointed if they have unrealistic expectations of what accuracy level they should be able to achieve.

Hirsch Precision has certainly done a great deal to promote all aspects of rifle shooting in Canada and they have done so in a quiet fashion that speaks volumes to the motives behind their support.

I am not certain what postings led to this challenge but I will say it is highly unlikely that anybody will be able to demonstrate accuracy at that level.
 
8 ball said:
At 300 yards a 3/4 MOA group is 3/4" , not 1/4". Still pretty small for a factory gun. I have done it but not very often.
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Boy, must have been late when I typed that:redface:! Yes, what I meant was 1/4 MOA at 300 yds was about a 3/4" group. Thanks to those who corrected me, and CyaN1de for the specifics. Phil
 
BTW....when are you coming back to Kamloops to shoot, or did we scare you off last time? :D[/QUOTE]

Nah - I wasn't scared but I learned a lot, realised I had to get a better rifle and glass and had to work on technique as the Savage 10FP/Falcon Menace and limited skills led to the 699/750 last place finish ! Hell, though I was the only factory gun on the line - I didn't even recognise Mystic's rifle as a firearm, I thought it was some sort of artillery piece LOL !!

With a TRG22/NF NXS 8x32 combo ( yes, still 'factory' I know ) and hopefully an improved technique I hope to at least break the 700 barrier :)

Cheers,

Bob
 
Bob, the issue of a factory gun having to compete against customs is a very valid one, and you having the perception of a lack of success is a great testimony as to why I pushed for a factory class.

I have far too many guns sitting in my safe looking for an opportunity to put a smile on someone's face. If you would like to come up and try shooting one of my 6 or 6.5's you are more than welcome!
 
Ian - thanks for the generous offer. If I can make it this year, I'll give it a shot so to speak with the TRG (sans brake of course) but perhaps afterwards I can try a few with one of your nice custom rifles.
 
A short search netted these in a few minutes....not calling anyone out here but pmt did put up a challenge. And if anyone is embarrassed...you can thank pmt
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Hmmmmm, the very first "example" you used was a thread I started showing the results I have had with my factory F/TR. My groups that I posted are a real 5 shot 100 yard group, immediately followed by a real 160 yard 5 shot group, witnessed by another member here on CGN. As I also stated in the thread, I have shot some 400 meter 5 shot groups under 2 inchesand numerous 3 inch groups. That can hardly be an example of showing a mythical "1/4 MOA" rifle,I was merely posting pictures of how impressed I haver been so far with a factory out of box rifle with an inexpensive scope. I am just getting into longer range shooting, and was certainly not boasting about my shooting skills . Not all of us have 10000 to drop on a rifle. I am extremely happy with my F/TR .308,for the price, it really cant be beat for a factory out of box rifle. I cant make it to cedar springs as I work and have a family, but will gladly go to Eganville Sortsmens Club to demonstrate the accuracy of the gun. There is no guarantee of 1/4 MOA, but I can guarantee that it is a pretty accurate gun.
So please dont post a thread of mine and use it as an example of someone saying their gun shoots 1/4 MOA all day, because thats hardly what I was saying in my thread.
 
Tomochan said:
Nah - I wasn't scared but I learned a lot, realised I had to get a better rifle and glass and had to work on technique as the Savage 10FP/Falcon Menace and limited skills led to the 699/750 last place finish ! Hell, though I was the only factory gun on the line - I didn't even recognise Mystic's rifle as a firearm, I thought it was some sort of artillery piece LOL !!

With a TRG22/NF NXS 8x32 combo ( yes, still 'factory' I know ) and hopefully an improved technique I hope to at least break the 700 barrier :)

Cheers,

Bob
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If you were the only one in your class, wouldn't that make you FIRST? ;)

That is why there are divisions so that each grouping of rifle can compete on a more even playing field.

Obtunded has done so much work (and a great job by the way) in bringing a factory class to local F class matches. This is likely the best thing to get new shooters to the line. At least it should address alot of the excuses.

I am sure the goal is not to pit factory rifles against full meal deal F open rigs. That would be pointless...

Nor is it to expect that you are match winning in your first outing. That would be silly too.

But to let anyone with a rifle enjoy the fun that is F class shooting.

Besides, you will likely not find a nicer group of shooters then those that show up at the Kamloops matches to help drown your sorrows with.

You came out and shot which is more then a whole lot of typewriter marksmen. As long as you had fun and learnt something, that is all that matters.

Once you have a load that is shooting consistently well (1/2 to 2/3 min in a factory rifle), the best thing you can do to improve your scores is to learn how to dope the winds. This is a lifelong quest but the only real way to improve your scores.

As to the orig post, I would be amazed to see a shooter shoot ANY F class legal rifle into 1/4 min 5rds at 300m under the slow fire format typical of an F class match. Sure 1 or 2 relays out of 10 but on any consistent basis?

Those shooters need to be on our National team for sure....

This may seem counterintuitive but the 10 rds 1/2 min is actually easier to achieve.

On the new ICFRA target, that is a 50pts score with a high V count - the 5's are shots just outside the V bull.

There are certainly a few shooters on this board that can do that.
Jerry
 
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