1/4 MOA Challenge

Why not make it fair. Since this all about the 1/4 moa factory gun and not the inexperienced guys shooting them and the lack of proper glass for shooting 300 yards, how about you make the challenge 50 yards and allow the shots to be taken with a vise and remote trigger. I don't think too many guys are claiming to shoot factory guns prone in less then ideal conditions with crap glass that can't barely resolve an image at 200 let alone 300 yards. The guys who are shooting stevens and other craptastic guns are usually not going to be experienced enough to hold 1/4 at 300 even if their guns would do it.
 
What is to "hold a 1/4 moa". You can use a rest, but no leadsled or one piece rests. No full sand bags or machine rest. Front rest or bipod and rear bag only. You don't need glass good enough to see bullet holes at 300m, you just need to be able to see the target.

The challenge is simple, you shot a 1/4 group with a factory rifle and I pay your guest fee and pay for your target marker for the day. If you can't produce a 1/4 moa group the most it will cost you is the price of the guest fee and the cost of the marker, about $65. For those that show up for the challenge and fail, there will be no hall of shame. However if you do produce a 1/4 moa group I will be the first one to post your picture here on CGN.

You will get about 10 chances to produce a 1/4 moa group. That's 2 chances per relay and 5 relays for the day. The group doesn't even have to be centered in the V bull, just somewhere on the 4ft target square board.
 
maynard said:
What is to "hold a 1/4 moa". You can use a rest, but no leadsled or one piece rests. No full sand bags or machine rest. Front rest or bipod and rear bag only. You don't need glass good enough to see bullet holes at 300m, you just need to be able to see the target.

The challenge is simple, you shot a 1/4 group with a factory rifle and I pay your guest fee and pay for your target marker for the day. If you can't produce a 1/4 moa group the most it will cost you is the price of the guest fee and the cost of the marker, about $65. For those that show up for the challenge and fail, there will be no hall of shame. However if you do produce a 1/4 moa group I will be the first one to post your picture here on CGN.

You will get about 10 chances to produce a 1/4 moa group. That's 2 chances per relay and 5 relays for the day. The group doesn't even have to be centered in the V bull, just somewhere on the 4ft target square board.
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The challenge is unrealistic. Shooting 1/4 moa at 100 yards is easy, move to 300 yards and not so easy. Not the same thing at all...you didnt realize that?? :rolleyes: If it was the same thing why bother practicing at long ranges. I can't find threads where anyone claims 1/4 moa at any range. Move out to longer ranges and all sorts of other factors need to be considered.

- optics - seen any nightforce scopes on stevens 200's lately?
- shooters ability to read wind mirage etc
- bullet selection - Most factory guns don't have fast enough twist for heavier bullets
- caliber and rifle chambering - again most factory offerings lacking for longer ranges
- weather/atmospheric conditions
- shooting position - most casual shooters are benching for group not shooting from prone

Its an unrealistic challenge meant to embarrass people. Put a 100 yard 1/4 moa challenge out there and bet pay cheques (even better add pinks slips for your rig against the factory rig) if you are so confident there are no factory 1/4 moa guns...bet you will be eating Kraft Dinner with a side of crow while shooting your savage next week.;) :nest:
 
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For the most part,the people claiming to shoot 1/4" groups are doing so at 100 yards off of sandbags,or similar rests.If you are going to have a challenge,make it under those conditions,but make it so that the person must shoot three 1/4" five shot groups out of five groups fired.Make a $75 side bet with every person,and you will end up money ahead,that is if anyone takes you up on your offer.
 
juanvaldez said:
The challenge is unrealistic. Shooting 1/4 moa at 100 yards is easy, move to 300 yards and not so easy. Not the same thing at all...you didnt realize that?? :rolleyes: If it was the same thing why bother practicing at long ranges. I can't find threads where anyone claims 1/4 moa at any range. Move out to longer ranges and all sorts of other factors need to be considered.

- optics - seen any nightforce scopes on stevens 200's lately?
- shooters ability to read wind mirage etc
- bullet selection - Most factory guns don't have fast enough twist for heavier bullets
- caliber and rifle chambering - again most factory offerings lacking for longer ranges
- weather/atmospheric conditions
- shooting position - most casual shooters are benching for group not shooting from prone

Its an unrealistic challenge meant to embarrass people. Put a 100 yard 1/4 moa challenge out there and bet pay cheques (even better add pinks slips for your rig against the factory rig) if you are so confident there are no factory 1/4 moa guns...bet you will be eating Kraft Dinner with a side of crow while shooting your savage next week.;) :nest:
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- so you are whining its not fair because stevens owners are too cheap for decent optics ?

- bullet selection. any of my factory 700s in 308 have enough twist for a 168 smk's which is more than enough bullet for 300 yards.

- 300 yards is a pretty short shot. i would consider long range 600 yards or better. there are more than enough factory options that will make it to 600 yards let alone 300 yards. besides jerry has been shooting 1000+ yards with a 223.

- weather ? um so what ? its the shooters job to dope for the weather. do you only shoot when you have wind under 5kph ?

- shooting position. again thats a shooting skill and its not unfair because you lack this skill ?


theres an old saying either put up or ;)
 
juanvaldez said:
The challenge is unrealistic. Shooting 1/4 moa at 100 yards is easy, move to 300 yards and not so easy. Not the same thing at all...you didnt realize that?? :rolleyes:


Its an unrealistic challenge meant to embarrass people. Put a 100 yard 1/4 moa challenge out there and bet pay cheques (even better add pinks slips for your rig against the factory rig) if you are so confident there are no factory 1/4 moa guns...bet you will be eating Kraft Dinner with a side of crow while shooting your savage next week.;) :nest:
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This challenge was not put out there to embarrass anyone. 1/4 moa angle is 1/4 moa regardless of the distance fired. 300m (300 yards) just so happens to be the shortest distance we fire in competition. I am not aware of any competitions that allow sand bags as a rest. If you need the challenge watered down how about I change it to 1/4 moa elevation spread over 5 shots? This take the wind out of the equation;) I am a TR shooter and the bull stays close to 2 moa at all distance from 300 to 1000 yards.

Again, I am not trying to make any money off this challenge. The guest fee that either the shooter (if they don't shoot 1/4moa group) or myself will pay goes to the ORA. The fee for the target marker goes to the kid in the butts doing all the work.

If a person does not want to except the challenge but would still like to come out a try their hand at 300m the fees are still the same. All I am doing is offering to pay those fees for the day if they do want to take up the challenge and can produce a 1/4 moa group.
 
This challenge was not put out there to embarrass anyone. 1/4 moa angle is 1/4 moa regardless of the distance fired. 300m (300 yards) just so happens to be the shortest distance we fire in competition. I am not aware of any competitions that allow sand bags as a rest. If you need the challenge watered down how about I change it to 1/4 moa elevation spread over 5 shots? This take the wind out of the equation I am a TR shooter and the bull stays close to 2 moa at all distance from 300 to 1000 yards.
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Who said anything about competing?Most of the claims of 1/4moa rifles were made by people shooting at 100 yards off of sandbags,not by people shooting according to the rules of competition shooting.If you dispute their claims,let them prove themselves under the conditions that they shot under when they posted their results.Even then,1/4moa groups will not be at all common.
 
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I don't see why some of you have issues with this. It's not just about putting your money where your mouth is (right...he expects some of us to drive 3-4 hours one way to prove a $375 rifle with a $50 scope will shoot 1/4 MOA). Maynard may have put the bar high but as I see it it's about the challenge. He's putting up his money for this and he'd be an idiot to make it easy. If you want a hand out get on your old clothes grab a hat and find a nice shaded place at Younge and Dundas. I'm going there because 100 m is all I've got unless I go to a powerline corridor and risk a hassel with the CO. I want to try shooting at some serious ranges and this strikes me as an oppertunity to not only shoot at longer ranges but to also see what shooting in a match is all about. I want to try F-class in the future and I see this as a gift.

I should be there on July 25 or the first date in August. Unless I manage to stumble on to a good working load today then it will be the 3rd. You could be a little closer though! I'm going to have to get up at 3am. Maybe I should just get a room, any cheap motels closer than Chatham?
 
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stubblejumper said:
Who said anything about competing?Most of the claims of 1/4moa rifles were made by people shooting at 100 yards off of sandbags,not by people shooting according to the rules of competition shooting.If you dispute their claims,let them prove themselves under the conditions that they shot under when they posted their results.Even then,1/4mos groups will not be at all common.
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Exactly my point...Your asking people to prove something they never claimed to begin with then making it out to be some kind of challenge.


I've shot 1/4 moa groups with a savage 10fp hs precison out of the box. Yup...3 shot groups off a front rest and rear sand bag from a bench at 100 yards. Did it many times. Tell you what. I'll travel down to a range and repeat the performance, lets say twice in 10 tries. If I can do it you give me your custom F-class, TR, F/TR or BR rig including glass. If I can't do it I'll pay my ammo, travelling costs, range fee's and marking fee's. Sound fair?


Yes of course 1/4 moa is 1/4 moa atm any range. Would you not agree it more difficult to achieve the further out you get, ie more bullet travel time, harder to see the target etc.


If you just want to get people out shooting just put out the offer. Its very admirable that you want to promote the sport but you and I both know the challenge as you put it is pretty much impossible for most shooters save for some national level shooters who are not likely to show up for an intro day.



iconfig said:
- so you are whining its not fair because stevens owners are too cheap for decent optics ?

- bullet selection. any of my factory 700s in 308 have enough twist for a 168 smk's which is more than enough bullet for 300 yards.

- 300 yards is a pretty short shot. i would consider long range 600 yards or better. there are more than enough factory options that will make it to 600 yards let alone 300 yards. besides jerry has been shooting 1000+ yards with a 223.

- weather ? um so what ? its the shooters job to dope for the weather. do you only shoot when you have wind under 5kph ?

- shooting position. again thats a shooting skill and its not unfair because you lack this skill ?


theres an old saying either put up or ;)
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Your totally missing the point but nothing new there.
 
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maynard said:
Here's the deal... I keep hearing about all these out of the box 1/4 moa rifles.......
Here are the rules. Rifle must be an off the shelf rifle with original barrel. Must be shot from the prone position. You can use any rest except sandbags or a one piece rest. Bedded actions are allowed. Any scope.

If you can not produce a 5 shot 1/4 moa group, you pay the guest fee and the cost of the marker($65 in total).

Who's up for the challenge?.........
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Any of you who know me, know that I am all for promoting shooting sports, however I have been watching this thread since it showed up on the 14th, and just don't get it.

I cannot remember a single instance of anyone posting here that their factory rifle group was anything other than from a bench. I don't think anyone ever said they shot quarter-minute groups from prone.

It would still be an serious challenge to have them come and demonstrate their 1/4 minute rifle and ability from the bench. You would have a lot of takers you could introduce to the club, and I'll bet that there would be very few winners. In fact, I will be glad to be part of the challenge, and put up 50% of the loss, if you have any at all! :)

Ted
 
Ted,

I'm not buying it.

I have a very difficult time accepting that a guy could suggest that shooting from the ground is the reason he cannot reproduce accuracy that was claimed to be achieved from a bench. I've been around this game for quite some time and could never claim that my accuracy was any worse just because I shot off the ground.

I would even make the argument that shooting from the ground may actually be more stable since the ground is pretty solid last time I checked.

One more thing. Cedar Springs is a military base and not a private range full of benches to shoot from. You have a grassy range with a hump running accros it at 300 meters. Just cozy up to a nice spot next to the other shooters and make your statement on the target. If the sun gets to you, you are welcome to stab an umbrella into the ground during practice.

No room for BS & excuses on the target. That stuff is all behind the firing line and I think that's what Maynard is getting at.
 
Well, I am just suggesting that you might get a few more guys to come out, if you let them shoot the way they claimed to do so in the first place, rather than introduce new rules to them.

Ted
 
If I was closer I would take you up on the 1/2MOA 10shot at 300. I have done it before on a standard shoot-n-see target and still have it laying around, nice little 1 1/2" group with a little more vertical than I wanted. I can't however, seem to get it done on Saturday matches with the DCRA targets. It's probably mostly in my head at that point.

Also, we are going to F-F rules (I think) in place of F-restricted which allow any front rest to be used with no bullet weight limit (although the weight limit was lifted from F-Rest as well). Still 308 and 223 though. My group was shot with a Harris bipod and I think I could get more consistency with a good front rest. I compete in F/F (F-rest) and use a Savage Model 12 BVSS. Everything on it is from the Savage factory, except for the scope, rings and bases of course.

P.S - How far are you from the Orr Lake area? Might be going there for Summer Vacation and could bring along the rifle and make some noise if it was fairly close.
 
I would even make the argument that shooting from the ground may actually be more stable since the ground is pretty solid last time I checked.
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More solid than a concrete bench?At the range that I shoot,the benches are solid concrete poured on a concrete slab.I have yet to see ground more stable than solid concrete.
 
Why not? said:
Well, I am just suggesting that you might get a few more guys to come out, if you let them shoot the way they claimed to do so in the first place, rather than introduce new rules to them.

Ted
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This is a funny thread, but I agree with this. The only way to prove definitively that a RIFLE is capable of a certain accuracy is to clamp that rifle into the biggest shooting vice you can get and fire off your group. Any other conditions change the contest to WHO can shoot the best group.

Just to be a PITA and a bit of a poop disturber, I think the OP is afraid he'll have to pony up some dough, so the "conditions" are getting harder... :D :p :kickInTheNuts:



(And FTR, If fifty guys showed up, I still don't think you would get more than a couple who could actually pull it off. ;) )
 
stubblejumper said:
More solid than a concrete bench?At the range that I shoot,the benches are solid concrete poured on a concrete slab.I have yet to see ground more stable than solid concrete.
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stubblejumper... More solid than a concrete bench?

Nobody said the bench must be concrete. Most of the ones around here are just wood anyway. But I still think the point is moot. A good stable concrete bench is stable and ground is stable. No diff. Lay down or sit up. its just an excuse to say that is why a guy may not be able to shot well and I dont buy it.

And the intent here is not to set up conditions that would cause these BSers to fail, the kind of people Maynard is calling out set themselves up to fail by making 1/4 moa statements in the first place.

Maynards retirement fund is as safe today as it was before he started this thread.
 
Panman said:
Just to be a PITA and a bit of a poop disturber, I think the OP is afraid he'll have to pony up some dough, so the "conditions" are getting harder... :D :p :kickInTheNuts:
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We don't have cement benches on a DND range but if you want to bring your own bench by all means bring it and shoot off a bench if you think it will help. Any rest except sandbags, one piece rest or machine rest.
I have opened the challenge to either 1/4 moa 5 shot group or a 1/2 moa 10 shot group. Then I also offered the same deal if you can produce a 5 shot group with 1/4 minute of elevation. How am I changing the rule to make it harder:rolleyes:

juanvaldez
Oh that sounds like a deal if you throw your car into the pot too. Make sure you safe enough for a bus ticket home:p
 
maynard said:
We don't have cement benches on a DND range but if you want to bring your own bench by all means bring it and shoot off a bench if you think it will help. Any rest except sandbags, one piece rest or machine rest.
I have opened the challenge to either 1/4 moa 5 shot group or a 1/2 moa 10 shot group. Then I also offered the same deal if you can produce a 5 shot group with 1/4 minute of elevation. How am I changing the rule to make it harder:rolleyes:

juanvaldez
Oh that sounds like a deal if you throw your car into the pot too. Make sure you safe enough for a bus ticket home:p
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Maynard I reread your original post, I think it was really the peanut gallery that turned this into a pissing match. I applaud your efforts to promote the shooting sports but your money is pretty safe for the 300 yard challenge. If on the other hand you want to put your gun up against my gun and car on the 100 yard challenge I gave you, your on. I drive a 2001 dodge neon.:D

What are you shooting BTW I want to get some ammo loaded up. :kickInTheNuts:
 
My gun is worth more than your Neon:p The challenge stands at 300m. You might be disappointed in what I am shooting, I have iron sights on it. It's just a Plain Jane HHE Millennium action and trigger in a laminated Reiben stock with a 1:12" Bartlein thats 30" long in .308 with an Obermeyer chamber. If you want to load me up some ammo it likes Lapua brass, Fed 210 match primers, 46 gr of Varget and 155.5 Bergers;)
 
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