10 Rd AR mags in 3 Gun
- Thread starter js
- Start date
Quigley said:
The RCMP run the registry and make the forensic decisions. They have made the decision that the magazines in question are pistol magazines. The FA states that magazines designed for pistols are limited to 10 rds. Thus it matters not what the CFC says.
- Location
- East ontario
redleg said:
Thats is a very good point, cfc delt with the gun regs but the rcmp is the law, law says its a pistol mag.
so i guess we will now own pistols with long barrles and buttstocks
bbb
Rock on! 
The magazines are either legal in and of themselves, or they are prohibited. The black type from the RCMP, and DFAIT seem to indicate that they are perfectly legal. They provide a clear rational as to how they collectively came to that conclusion.
Unless altered, they are and will remain an unrestricted firearms accessory. There use in an unaltered state in any firearm does not affect the legal status of the magazine nor the firearm.
Unless altered, they are and will remain an unrestricted firearms accessory. There use in an unaltered state in any firearm does not affect the legal status of the magazine nor the firearm.
Man, as stated many times above and in other places, magazines are limited to X number of rounds. Once again, the mags are ruled on and 5 or 10 rounds allowed (for pistol and semi). It does not matter what firearm you decide to put them in as they have no bearing on the matter.
That is why the Remington 7615 pump action rifle that takes AR mags is limited to 5 rounds (until these RRA mags appear) not 30. Pump actions have no limit on rounds but the mag does as it's classified as a 5 round semi auto AR-15 mag.
That is why the Remington 7615 pump action rifle that takes AR mags is limited to 5 rounds (until these RRA mags appear) not 30. Pump actions have no limit on rounds but the mag does as it's classified as a 5 round semi auto AR-15 mag.
If you have "credible" evidence that these are not legal then please state that evidence... name, position and authority of the person making the statement. It's B***S*** plain and simple.
The decision was clear and definitive on these magazines. It was made by the RCMP Firearms Classification Section (the same section that decided all the other "issues" that have been discussed to death in these forums). The decision was made with knowledge, input and agreement of the CFC Registry Section (George Fraser) and with the knowledge of DFAIT (though they have nothing to do with the determination. The Justice Department was consulted during the process as well.
There is no grey area here... the law is clear and specific... once the magazine itself is classified as a legal 10 round pistol magazine it is a legal item and that status is NOT changed by inserting it into a rifle. Anyone that tells you that "putting a legal 10 round capacity pistol magazine into a rifle makes the magazine a prohibited device" is wrong and does not know the law... plain and simple.
I'm not going to sit and argue all of this... say what you want... believe what you want. If you want to claim differently then state your legal basis for making the statement... quote the section of the Firearms Act or Criminal Code that supports your statement.
In the meantime read what the CFC's website says about the Beretta Storm magazines (under Bulletins)... it's pretty clearly stated there that a pistol magazine inserted into a Beretta Storm rifle can legally contain 10 rounds... it was the "rifle magazine" that was not legally allowed to contain more than 5 rounds.
Mark
The decision was clear and definitive on these magazines. It was made by the RCMP Firearms Classification Section (the same section that decided all the other "issues" that have been discussed to death in these forums). The decision was made with knowledge, input and agreement of the CFC Registry Section (George Fraser) and with the knowledge of DFAIT (though they have nothing to do with the determination. The Justice Department was consulted during the process as well.
There is no grey area here... the law is clear and specific... once the magazine itself is classified as a legal 10 round pistol magazine it is a legal item and that status is NOT changed by inserting it into a rifle. Anyone that tells you that "putting a legal 10 round capacity pistol magazine into a rifle makes the magazine a prohibited device" is wrong and does not know the law... plain and simple.
I'm not going to sit and argue all of this... say what you want... believe what you want. If you want to claim differently then state your legal basis for making the statement... quote the section of the Firearms Act or Criminal Code that supports your statement.
In the meantime read what the CFC's website says about the Beretta Storm magazines (under Bulletins)... it's pretty clearly stated there that a pistol magazine inserted into a Beretta Storm rifle can legally contain 10 rounds... it was the "rifle magazine" that was not legally allowed to contain more than 5 rounds.
Mark
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- Location
- Halifax - NS
Nah - More like WHERE CAN I GET SOME???667 said:
Freedom Ventures said:Nah - More like WHERE CAN I GET SOME???
'Depends I suppose on who's there..
I showed up a a three gun once with my beretta cx4 back when the rifle was still very new.. I think maybe I had the 3rd or 4th "in country" (I had imported it myself)
Well.... you'd think I'd committed a major crime or torn the tag off a mattress given the reaction from the people at the match.
One fella, claiming to be a lawyer came up with much of the same fertilizer I read here...
"Well, the mag is legally allowed to hold ten rounds. Where the offense occurs is at the instant you insert that mag into the gun"
Needless to say I wasn't left with the feeling I'd be welcomed back anytime soon... Especially if I brought that evil cx4 with me.
Slightly off subject, competitions are about the best shooter, the best gear and winning. Things don't have to be "fair" or "equal" in regards to gear. If they did we'd all have to shoot the exact same stock gun, the exact same ammo and use the exact same sling/holster with no modifications allowed.
If I want to win a match I had better A) be a good shooter and B) have the best equipment I can get. If I use a firearm that holds only 5 rounds and my competitor has one that holds 10 that sure isn't his fault, it's mine for not buying the best gear for the job at hand... winning.
If I want to win a match I had better A) be a good shooter and B) have the best equipment I can get. If I use a firearm that holds only 5 rounds and my competitor has one that holds 10 that sure isn't his fault, it's mine for not buying the best gear for the job at hand... winning.
MasterPython
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary AB
So these ten round mags are ok because they were made for a pistol. But Dlask had to make special non ar-15 mags for there pump action carbine instead of making regular one and lableing them PAC?
Wow....Mark goes to all the trouble to get these approved and imported and posts the approval notice in fact and detail.That question on legality should have been a non issue.I wish misinformed rumors wouldn't be posted until resources (Mark) was consulted.
Question as to match directors allowing their use in 3 gun....well I guess that's entirely up to the match directors.Legally available gear should be allowed IMHO.
I guess fact will take some time to catch up to known realities and in the meantime wrong opinions will flourish.
Thanks again Mark for all your efforts to bring them here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Question as to match directors allowing their use in 3 gun....well I guess that's entirely up to the match directors.Legally available gear should be allowed IMHO.
I guess fact will take some time to catch up to known realities and in the meantime wrong opinions will flourish.
Thanks again Mark for all your efforts to bring them here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will plead ignorance on my next question... though I'm still Black Badge certified I admit I don't get to shoot a lot of IPSC matches the past while, so if the following statement is off the mark then I apologize... but...
It was always my impression that the IPSC Rule Book determined what IS or what IS NOT allowed in IPSC competitions. I would have never thought that a match director (or anyone else for that matter) had the authority to decide that they will arbitrarily ban 10 round magazine use in a match. Match directors are certainly not legal authorities when it comes to deciding what is a prohibited device either.
Obviously the people setting up the match have the ability to stipulate the stage and how it will be fired... they might be able to state that only "x number of rounds can be loaded" thus eliminating the advantage of a 10 round over a 5 round magazine... but how can they state that 10 round magazines are not allowed unless the IPSC rules state they aren't allowed? Since when do match directors make the rules.
When I took my IPSC Range Officer course I was taught that if I was going to make a ruling I had to be able to quote the rule that supported my decision. Where in the IPSC Rules does it say that people can't use more than 5 rounds in a long gun? Show that to me and I'll agree but if you can't show that in the rules then under what authority is the ruling being made?
If I'm wrong on this (and I might be) then please explain it to me... isn't this exactly why there is a clearly written rule book?
Mark
It was always my impression that the IPSC Rule Book determined what IS or what IS NOT allowed in IPSC competitions. I would have never thought that a match director (or anyone else for that matter) had the authority to decide that they will arbitrarily ban 10 round magazine use in a match. Match directors are certainly not legal authorities when it comes to deciding what is a prohibited device either.
Obviously the people setting up the match have the ability to stipulate the stage and how it will be fired... they might be able to state that only "x number of rounds can be loaded" thus eliminating the advantage of a 10 round over a 5 round magazine... but how can they state that 10 round magazines are not allowed unless the IPSC rules state they aren't allowed? Since when do match directors make the rules.
When I took my IPSC Range Officer course I was taught that if I was going to make a ruling I had to be able to quote the rule that supported my decision. Where in the IPSC Rules does it say that people can't use more than 5 rounds in a long gun? Show that to me and I'll agree but if you can't show that in the rules then under what authority is the ruling being made?
If I'm wrong on this (and I might be) then please explain it to me... isn't this exactly why there is a clearly written rule book?
Mark
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
We're talking rifles here though, not handguns, but the rule is pretty much the same.
I've actually got a custom-made bolt-action rifle with mags that only fit that rifle, and they hold 17 rounds, CFC had a lot of fun coming up with an e-mail on that one, lol. That would be in Open manually-operated division IPSC rifle, I await the competition...
It took them about 11 months to come up with something for my L98A1 magazines, they decided in the end they were designed for an automatic rifle, the SA80, so they had to be pinned to five rounds.
Still, one out of two wasn't bad.
I've actually got a custom-made bolt-action rifle with mags that only fit that rifle, and they hold 17 rounds, CFC had a lot of fun coming up with an e-mail on that one, lol. That would be in Open manually-operated division IPSC rifle, I await the competition...
It took them about 11 months to come up with something for my L98A1 magazines, they decided in the end they were designed for an automatic rifle, the SA80, so they had to be pinned to five rounds.
Still, one out of two wasn't bad.
