I know exactly how you feel. I’ve got a picture of 3 successive shots with CCISV at 100 that is a “group” about 3/4”. I stopped that group to take a picture to illustrate laws of randomness.
100M/YD 22LR 10 rnd groups
- Thread starter emerson
- Start date
I know exactly how you feel. I’ve got a picture of 3 successive shots with CCISV at 100 that is a “group” about 3/4”. I stopped that group to take a picture to illustrate laws of randomness.
To be fair, when groups between 50 and 100 are compared, it's not exactly apples to apples. Even in the same box from the same lot the individual rounds are different, they are not exactly identical. This is illustrated by the group size variation seen at 50 yards. The ammo is from the same lot, even the same box, but its not the same ammo. This is a fact of life with .22LR ammo, even good match ammo where ES can be significant enough to influence results especially at 100 yards. Rimfire ammo is rarely made as consistently as good handloads of centerfire ammo.
At the Lapua testing facilities in Arizona and Mesa, electronic sensors are used at both 50 and 100 meters. They record target results but don't interfere in any way with the flight of the bullets as they pass by. As a result, the exact same rounds can be compared at both distances. Only at the testing facilities is it possible to compare 50 meter groups with 100 meter groups, apples to apples.
As a note of interest, comparisons of Lapua testing facility results at 50 and 100 meters with the same rifles, shows that on average ten shot group results at 100 meters are 2.8 times the size of results at 50 meters. Some rifles with some lots will be more, some less. But when the results of many rifles using many lots are compared, the ratio between 50 and 100 meters is on average 2.8.
Some shooters have attempted shooting through a target paper at 50 yards and beyond to a second target at 100. This partly overcomes the apples to apples problem, but it doesn't solve the problem of paper deflection (the possibility of the bullet not flying unaffected by the paper target at 50), at least for the majority of the first shots in the group, assuming of course that subsequent shots go through holes in the paper made by previous rounds. In any case, targets shot at 100 yards at places outside of testing facilities are invariably outdoors and that introduces yet another potential cause of concern.
The only way to overcome problems such as those outlined above is to shoot as many groups as possible at 50 yards to obtain average results. The same should be done at 100 yards. The greater the number of groups compared, the better the comparison. Comparing single groups is not as helpful.
100 yrd on 200 hunter class targets 1 INCH 10 ring
54 annie ,10 by 50x sigh tron. Rw50 ammo shot in competition Beachburg ON.View attachment 509917
View attachment 509917
54 annie ,10 by 50x sigh tron. Rw50 ammo shot in competition Beachburg ON.View attachment 509917
View attachment 509917
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Tagging myself here for future results. Love to try and shoot 100m with a 22LR. Im trying to get my No4 Rolling block working again. Years ago I tried with a old Cooey 78 with peeps and was impressed with 2.5in group, with bulk.
Dad gave me some old RWS and Lapua 22 ammo. So be worth trying those. Def be mounting a scope.
Dad gave me some old RWS and Lapua 22 ammo. So be worth trying those. Def be mounting a scope.
Very nice. Even if you overlay all 5 groups as if it was a 15 rnd group that’s pretty small.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Score shooting... 3 rds per target so you can easily see the shots and score. The multi shot target is the sighter target where he has gone back to confirm his wind calls and/or zero.
If you hit the dot in the middle, that is an "X"... so a perfect card is 150-15X. I am going to GUESS that the 10 ring is 3/4"
For this game, they are using BEST edge for scoring. Some games use WORST edge so if the shot is not completely inside the scoring ring, you get the lower point.
Jerry
Very nice shooting Manitou210!
So I gave it a try this morning, but the wind came up badly, gusting and switching, and sort of ruined the session.
My local Range does not allow shooting before 9:00 AM on weekdays (10:00 AM weekends), so its usually impossible to beat the start up of the wind. If we could start at 6 or 7 AM here we would get better rimfire results. In competitions wind is fair game in scoring type matches or shooting for group matches. But for shooting alone testing rifle and ammo for minimum group size, wind defeats the purpose.
Our 100 yd range is unusually angled down, not rimfire-friendly. The shooting benches are up on a steep hill about 15 ft high, shooting down into an old rehabilitated aggregate pit below. The 4 wind flags we have are up on posts about 8 feet high, and the bullet paths are high above those for much of the flight in unknown windage space. The bullets get a lot of crazy wind high up that cannot be read by wind flags down on the floor of the old pit.
I held for wind as best I could, but I can only see two flags in my lane. The wind made a mess of my overall attempt.
I used a target I recently made for my club specifically for rimfire 100-yard matches (although we have not had a match yet), with rings sort of based on an F-Class concept (half MOA X ring, 1 MOA multiples for other rings). Five targets for record, and one S sighter target bottom left. Printed on 11x17 paper. (The text box in the middle is marked "draft" because it has not been club-approved yet). Ring Diameters: X ring = 1/2 inch (1/2 MOA), 10 ring = 1 inch (1MOA), 9 ring = 2 inches (2 MOA), 8 ring = 3 inches (3 MOA), 7 ring = 4 inches (4 MOA). Scoring was intended for five 5-shot groups, max score 250-25X.
But for this thread's OP request I shot five 10-shot groups. Group sizes are marked, and I scored it just for fun (out of 500 points).
Groups for targets 1 to 5:
1.419
2.330
2.007
1.910
1.585
Average = 1.850 inches.
After I sighted in on the S sighter target (clicked up about 7 MOA from my 50 yd zero), I first shot Target #1 just before the wind really picked up. Target #1 was the best group at 1.419 inches.
I got the first 7 shots on #1 off before the wind got bad, and each hit 10-X for what was looking like a 3/4 inch group. I think this rifle and ammo (SK Biathlon Sport) are capable of that (same combo as I used for the 1/2 inch 50m/yd challenge), given the limitations that it is essentially practice grade ammo.
But after shot 7 the wind picked up and went bad for the rest of the session. The 3 fliers in that first #1 group were wind-caused with a bad wind call. Although the water line for 9 of them is well within 1 MOA except for that top right flier, so not bad.
It was then a wind hold guessing game and the groups opened way up, and the water lines expanded vertically out to 2 MOA.
On targets 2 though 5 you can see that some holds were good, hitting 10 and 10-X, but others were a mess. If I had a full set of wind flags adjusted to the extreme heights and slope on this crazy 100 yd range, I think I could have made better wind calls.
Rifle: Anschutz 1907. Scope: 45x45 Sightron. Mystic Precision MPOD. Caldwell rear bag. Caldwell elbow bag. Ammo: SK Biathlon Sport.
I will give this another try, hopefully on a less windy morning.
Question/comment: 10 shot groups can make a ragged hole and make it difficult to count the number of rounds. I wonder if its better to keep the groups to 5 rounds?
So I gave it a try this morning, but the wind came up badly, gusting and switching, and sort of ruined the session.
My local Range does not allow shooting before 9:00 AM on weekdays (10:00 AM weekends), so its usually impossible to beat the start up of the wind. If we could start at 6 or 7 AM here we would get better rimfire results. In competitions wind is fair game in scoring type matches or shooting for group matches. But for shooting alone testing rifle and ammo for minimum group size, wind defeats the purpose.
Our 100 yd range is unusually angled down, not rimfire-friendly. The shooting benches are up on a steep hill about 15 ft high, shooting down into an old rehabilitated aggregate pit below. The 4 wind flags we have are up on posts about 8 feet high, and the bullet paths are high above those for much of the flight in unknown windage space. The bullets get a lot of crazy wind high up that cannot be read by wind flags down on the floor of the old pit.
I held for wind as best I could, but I can only see two flags in my lane. The wind made a mess of my overall attempt.
I used a target I recently made for my club specifically for rimfire 100-yard matches (although we have not had a match yet), with rings sort of based on an F-Class concept (half MOA X ring, 1 MOA multiples for other rings). Five targets for record, and one S sighter target bottom left. Printed on 11x17 paper. (The text box in the middle is marked "draft" because it has not been club-approved yet). Ring Diameters: X ring = 1/2 inch (1/2 MOA), 10 ring = 1 inch (1MOA), 9 ring = 2 inches (2 MOA), 8 ring = 3 inches (3 MOA), 7 ring = 4 inches (4 MOA). Scoring was intended for five 5-shot groups, max score 250-25X.
But for this thread's OP request I shot five 10-shot groups. Group sizes are marked, and I scored it just for fun (out of 500 points).
Groups for targets 1 to 5:
1.419
2.330
2.007
1.910
1.585
Average = 1.850 inches.
After I sighted in on the S sighter target (clicked up about 7 MOA from my 50 yd zero), I first shot Target #1 just before the wind really picked up. Target #1 was the best group at 1.419 inches.
I got the first 7 shots on #1 off before the wind got bad, and each hit 10-X for what was looking like a 3/4 inch group. I think this rifle and ammo (SK Biathlon Sport) are capable of that (same combo as I used for the 1/2 inch 50m/yd challenge), given the limitations that it is essentially practice grade ammo.
But after shot 7 the wind picked up and went bad for the rest of the session. The 3 fliers in that first #1 group were wind-caused with a bad wind call. Although the water line for 9 of them is well within 1 MOA except for that top right flier, so not bad.
It was then a wind hold guessing game and the groups opened way up, and the water lines expanded vertically out to 2 MOA.
On targets 2 though 5 you can see that some holds were good, hitting 10 and 10-X, but others were a mess. If I had a full set of wind flags adjusted to the extreme heights and slope on this crazy 100 yd range, I think I could have made better wind calls.
Rifle: Anschutz 1907. Scope: 45x45 Sightron. Mystic Precision MPOD. Caldwell rear bag. Caldwell elbow bag. Ammo: SK Biathlon Sport.
I will give this another try, hopefully on a less windy morning.
Question/comment: 10 shot groups can make a ragged hole and make it difficult to count the number of rounds. I wonder if its better to keep the groups to 5 rounds?
Attachments
Good ten shot groups can make a small, ragged hole in which it's hard to discern individual bullet holes. Anyone who does this at 100 yards probably deserves to be hoisted on figurative shoulders and celebrated for one of two reasons. He either has the greatest luck or he has an incredibly accurate rifle, incredibly accurate ammo, shoots in incredibly calm conditions, and has top-most shooting skills.
In other words, it has to be a very good group at 100 for individual shots to be mostly unidentifiable and as such shouldn't be a concern. In fact, sub-one inch ten shot groups are not the norm, even when the rifle is shot from a vise in an indoor test tunnel.
Below are some results from the Lapua testing facility in Ohio. The rifles or barreled actions were clamped in a vise or fixture when shot in the indoor tunnel. The results are shown for 100 meters, outside edge measurements.
Only a small number (5) of the results shown have an outside edge diameter under 1 inch. For center-to-center size under 1 inch, the outside edge measurements shown can be no larger than 31 mm.
In all, between the ten different rifles with ten groups each at 100, if I've counted correctly a total of 42 groups were under 1 inch center-to-center. And, significantly, of those 42 sub 1" C-C groups, 16 of them were produced with only two of the rifles, the Stiller and the Turbo. Only one other rifle had as many as half of its ten shot groups under one inch center-to-center.
Readers should note that what's identified as "Lot #1" may not be the same as what's Lot #1 for other rifles.
These results were originally posted here h t t p s://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/22lr-lot-testing-at-lapuas-indoor-100m-test-facility-what-should-you-expect-in-gains/
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Biologist, nice shooting... wind will always be something to contend with.
Glad the MPOD is working well for you.
Oldly, Sightron 45X and MPOD... combo I suggested to you.
Jerry
Glad the MPOD is working well for you.
Oldly, Sightron 45X and MPOD... combo I suggested to you.
Jerry
Great details, thanks for posting. Nice shooting. I think if it’s one ragged hole we will trust that you shot all 10 in there. Your experience with wind and trying to get 10 consistent shots in one target mirrors mine. Glad it’s not just me. Sounds like your range is a challenge.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Simple and inexpensive wind flags.... Dollar store Cdn Flags. Bamboo sticks for landscaping and open the center hole to fit the stick that comes with the flag.
Drill a hole in a hunk of 2X4 the same as the bamboo stick... weight down this block with rocks.... or stick the bamboo stick into the dirt. 3 flags 25 yds apart will tell you all that you need to know.
On a calm day, use 2 ft of flagging tape.
Wind itself is not the issue... it is the change in the direction and velocity that is. Just make sure you shoot when the 3 flags are pointing in a consistent manner.... mirage too.
AND shoot fast.
Jerry
Drill a hole in a hunk of 2X4 the same as the bamboo stick... weight down this block with rocks.... or stick the bamboo stick into the dirt. 3 flags 25 yds apart will tell you all that you need to know.
On a calm day, use 2 ft of flagging tape.
Wind itself is not the issue... it is the change in the direction and velocity that is. Just make sure you shoot when the 3 flags are pointing in a consistent manner.... mirage too.
AND shoot fast.
Jerry
Yes. Good ideas!
One issue on our Range rules is that we cannot use exposed rocks. In fact we annually have to pick rocks that come up every year from frost heaving, and remove them. But do-able with another method. Some guys screw in lag bolt "spikes" in 2x4's for purchase in the dirt for flag stands.
Unfortunately for our 100 yd range, I would need stands putting the flags up tp 8 to 10 feet feet high, due to the steep hill the firing line and benches are on, which is about 15 feet above the floor of the range. The structures start to become big and heavy and non-portable, so it gets complicated. We had 6 permanent flag stands but recently lost 2 of them due to heavy equipment access for range maintenance. More new stands have not yet been refurbished and installed. All lanes cannot have these towering flags because there is a service road, and in winter the snow plow has to get in and maneuver and move snow (which sometimes buries or sheers off wind flags!), and members are allowed to drive their vehicles in from the side and then down the center to place and retrieve targets (The hill is so steep that some members with physical challenges cannot safely hike up and down it, especially in the icy winter, so the drive around the hill and in from the side of the range is what they do, but that design limits available flag space.). Complications. Its an all volunteer Range, so we plug away at it.
Thanks Grauhanen for that testing data info. Good to know that the best groups possible at 100m are usually greater than 1 inch (25.4 cm). Makes me feel better about my big fat 100 yd groups!
Based on your rationale, I will be OK with 10 round groups at 100. You will just have to trust me if I ever do submit that ragged 1 MOA or smaller 10-round hole on paper! (haha!).
BTW in the stats table, what does "DRMS" mean?
Based on your rationale, I will be OK with 10 round groups at 100. You will just have to trust me if I ever do submit that ragged 1 MOA or smaller 10-round hole on paper! (haha!).
BTW in the stats table, what does "DRMS" mean?
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
If the ground is soft but firm, how about a 2X4 with spikes that you can push down into the ground?
Use your foot to drive a base into the ground. Then just remove when done.
If the rules allow, just leave the wooden base pegged into the dirt. Drop the flag on as you walk out to set up your target... could also bury some plastic pipe and use that as a flag pole holder.
Make a footing out of lumber and bury most of it so it can't flop over... expose a little bit with a few holes for the flagpole. A 4X4 with a 2X4 "T" that is buried ain't going anywhere for years and years and years.
Doesn't have to be overly complicated.
Jerry
Use your foot to drive a base into the ground. Then just remove when done.
If the rules allow, just leave the wooden base pegged into the dirt. Drop the flag on as you walk out to set up your target... could also bury some plastic pipe and use that as a flag pole holder.
Make a footing out of lumber and bury most of it so it can't flop over... expose a little bit with a few holes for the flagpole. A 4X4 with a 2X4 "T" that is buried ain't going anywhere for years and years and years.
Doesn't have to be overly complicated.
Jerry
I had too google it. As far as I can tell, it’s the radius in mm that 65% of the shots should go into. Funny thing, when I shoot positional groups at 100-ish, I also record the group size minus the worst 3 of 20 or 2 of 10 to get a probable hit percentage on the appropriate size target. Much less scientific, but gives me the same idea.
To quote from the (broken) link provided earlier, DRMS (Distance Root Mean Square) is "the radius of a circle that will be expected to contain the center points of ~65% of all future shots fired based on those already fired. DRMS takes into account a lot more of the data from shots fired than OD and is therefore a much more robust measurement of precision. Basically, it tells you more, from less rounds fired, than OD because it utilizes more of the data from each round fired."
Simple group sizes may not always be the most effective way to measure ammo performance, which is the purpose of the testing facilities. Group size measures the two worst shots on target. There is no way to tell by a group size if all shots were evenly distributed in a group or if most shots were very close to one another, with one shot slightly away from the others. DRMS provides a way to assess how close to each other the shots are.
To illustrate with an example, below are two groups that measure about the same outside-to-outside. One has its shots distributed more evenly throughout the overall group diameter, while the other has four shots very close together and one that's not. The group size is very similar, but the ammo performance less so.
the bottom right target is slighter.
We are allowed 7 minutes fire 5 shots total, on targets 1,2,3,4,and 5.
We have 15 min break and do it again,
This appears to be the best forum to get feed back on a 100 Yard/Metre Challenge.
I make no apologies as the rules are currently heavily plagiarized on the 50 Yard/Metre Challenge.
Private messages to suggest changes are recommended.
Should the site have support, it will probably die an unnatural death if "Reply with Quote" get out of control
"Reply" quoting the post # is preferable.
Rambling on about failures will also signal a death knell.
Sticking with factual information is preferable.
100 Yard/Metre 22 long rifle Challenge
The target is the 100 Yard Unlimited Match and should be printed on 65 lb. Card Stock
http://cherrytwist.googlepages.com/PQFG100.pdf
The challenge is to shoot three ten-shot groups with a 22lr at 100 yards/meters.
Here are the requirements for the challenge:
You must use a 22 long rifle
There is no restriction on action type or cost of the firearm
You may use any 22 long rifle ammunition you wish
You must shoot three 10-shot groups at 100 yards/meters.
All three groups must be inside the respective seven rings.
All three groups must be on the same paper. The sighter target does not have to be used.
You must show the full sheet of paper
Any shots outside of the sighter square or cutting the “7” ring is disqualified.
There cannot be anything on your target that could be hiding any group or bullet hole that is not part of your "official" attempt
All the attempts at the challenge must have been shot after the challenge was issued
Your post must include the following:
A picture of your rifle and the rest(s) you used
A pic of your target with all three groups visible and the group sizes and group average written on the target
A pic of your largest group with a set of calipers to verify the group size
Your rifle, scope and ammunition information
Your post must also have THE GROUP SIZES AND AVERAGE WRITTEN IN THE POST.
You shall measure individual bullet holes to determine the subtraction factor from your overall group size to arrive at a center to center group size.
Please put all your info into ONE POST. If you forgot anything please EDIT your post to include the missing info
ALL POSTS MUST HAVE THE REQUIRED INFO OR I WILL IGNORE THEM UNTIL ALL THE INFO IS INCLUDED IN THE POST!!!!!
Most importantly, have fun and be safe.
I make no apologies as the rules are currently heavily plagiarized on the 50 Yard/Metre Challenge.
Private messages to suggest changes are recommended.
Should the site have support, it will probably die an unnatural death if "Reply with Quote" get out of control
"Reply" quoting the post # is preferable.
Rambling on about failures will also signal a death knell.
Sticking with factual information is preferable.
100 Yard/Metre 22 long rifle Challenge
The target is the 100 Yard Unlimited Match and should be printed on 65 lb. Card Stock
http://cherrytwist.googlepages.com/PQFG100.pdf
The challenge is to shoot three ten-shot groups with a 22lr at 100 yards/meters.
Here are the requirements for the challenge:
You must use a 22 long rifle
There is no restriction on action type or cost of the firearm
You may use any 22 long rifle ammunition you wish
You must shoot three 10-shot groups at 100 yards/meters.
All three groups must be inside the respective seven rings.
All three groups must be on the same paper. The sighter target does not have to be used.
You must show the full sheet of paper
Any shots outside of the sighter square or cutting the “7” ring is disqualified.
There cannot be anything on your target that could be hiding any group or bullet hole that is not part of your "official" attempt
All the attempts at the challenge must have been shot after the challenge was issued
Your post must include the following:
A picture of your rifle and the rest(s) you used
A pic of your target with all three groups visible and the group sizes and group average written on the target
A pic of your largest group with a set of calipers to verify the group size
Your rifle, scope and ammunition information
Your post must also have THE GROUP SIZES AND AVERAGE WRITTEN IN THE POST.
You shall measure individual bullet holes to determine the subtraction factor from your overall group size to arrive at a center to center group size.
Please put all your info into ONE POST. If you forgot anything please EDIT your post to include the missing info
ALL POSTS MUST HAVE THE REQUIRED INFO OR I WILL IGNORE THEM UNTIL ALL THE INFO IS INCLUDED IN THE POST!!!!!
Most importantly, have fun and be safe.
