Big JD-From the hills
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Saskatchewan.
sometimes dumb luck is the only luck one gets in these situations... best to die trying than not pack.
10mm for bear defense
- Thread starter Big Mike
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
No pistol cartridge commonly available will be able to kill a big bear through shock energy - the .475 Linebaugh being a possible exception. You can however kill a bear with bullet penetration applied to the brain. I generally like big bore handguns, but in the case of stopping a bear in a live or die scenario, I would be more apt to choose a gun with exceptional bullet penetration and lower recoil. In this case the various 9mm/.36's seem to have an edge when loaded with proper bullets. An auto might save the day with it's ability for a fast second shot - after all the brain pan is only 3" wide - so it is not beyond the relm of possibility that when in a state of high anxiety one might muff his first shot. Therefore, caliber and action aside, the most important choice to make is the style of bullet.
.45cal capacity with a .40 cal bullet to get a 10mm energy; what a pointless round...
Why not have just get a 10mm (same or more power with higher capacity)? There's 10mm loads that make 700ft-lbs of energy (buffalo bore Double tap), but I'd still want a hot .44mag
I had a friend who did some prospecting in the Atlin area about 20 years ago and he always packed a shotgun with slugs along with a S&W Model 29 in his shoulder holster. I asked him what he'd rely on if he only had to pick one and he said that the shotgun would be his first choice. Being a city slicker myself, I don't think it would matter what I'd pack. I'd wind up as grizzly bear poop because I'd be shaking so bad I'd be lucky to hit the side of a barn. 
Just for a quick comparison, the original Norma 10mm "man stopper" of 170gr HP @ an advertised 1300 fps, has approx. 638 foot pounds of energy. It was extremely hard on any pistol including the Bren Ten for which the round was designed for, and also beat up the S&W 1076 and Colt Delta Elite. So much so, that the factory round was discontinued, and no major pistol manufacturer had a pistol that would withstand the constant feeding of this hotter ammunition.
Now,,,,,, most guys on this board would probably agree that a 223 (5.56mm) rifle round would be too light to go hunt bears.
However, the premium 62 SS109 round has approx. 1150 foot pounds of energy. Basicaly twice that of the hand bruising, wrist cracking, pistol breaking, factory Norma 10mm.
FWIW
of 170gr HP @ an advertised 1300 fps, has approx. 638 foot pounds of energy. It was extremely hard on any pistol including the Bren Ten for which the round was designed for, and also beat up the S&W 1076 and Colt Delta Elite. So much so, that the factory round was discontinued, and no major pistol manufacturer had a pistol that would withstand the constant feeding of this hotter ammunition.Now,,,,,, most guys on this board would probably agree that a 223 (5.56mm) rifle round would be too light to go hunt bears.
However, the premium 62 SS109 round has approx. 1150 foot pounds of energy. Basicaly twice that of the hand bruising, wrist cracking, pistol breaking, factory Norma 10mm.
FWIW
I found this somewhere else:
Q: I need a handgun to defend myself from bear attacks on my next expedition. Would a .44 Magnum be the best choice?
A: This question is invariably asked every few months in the rec.guns or rec.hunting newsgroups. The common wisdom seems to be that, unless you are very very sure about being able to hit the skull of a charging bear with your handgun, you are much better off with a heavy rifle. Even if you are sure of your targeting skills under pressure, some bear skulls are tough enough to completely deflect handgun bullets, even the .44 Magnum. [Other popular advice suggests that you file the front sight off of your handgun, so it will hurt less when the injured and pissed-off bear shoves it up your a**]
Q: I need a handgun to defend myself from bear attacks on my next expedition. Would a .44 Magnum be the best choice?
A: This question is invariably asked every few months in the rec.guns or rec.hunting newsgroups. The common wisdom seems to be that, unless you are very very sure about being able to hit the skull of a charging bear with your handgun, you are much better off with a heavy rifle. Even if you are sure of your targeting skills under pressure, some bear skulls are tough enough to completely deflect handgun bullets, even the .44 Magnum. [Other popular advice suggests that you file the front sight off of your handgun, so it will hurt less when the injured and pissed-off bear shoves it up your a**]
I have a buddy in NC that uses his Smtih 610 revolver in 10mm for deer hunting. The bullets he uses are 180gr handloads he calls the ''pissed off'' loads.
We were shooting at the range and one of these loads got mixed up and ended up in the Glock 29 ahhh memories
We were shooting at the range and one of these loads got mixed up and ended up in the Glock 29
ahhh memoriesI have been surfing the 10mm talk forums and you hear guys talking about shooting 1000's of rounds of double tap ammo through the various 10s without issue. These numbers look respectable to me:
When penetration is key, two holes bleed better than one! Entrance and exit hole! This is an excellent load for woods protection.
Caliber : 10mm
Bullet : 200gr FMJ/ FP
Ballistics : 1275fps/ 722 ft./lbs. - Glock 20
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=39
Although if my life depends on it, then I want something in the way of a 120mm sabot round and the m1a2 tank that its attached to for cover.
When penetration is key, two holes bleed better than one! Entrance and exit hole! This is an excellent load for woods protection.
Caliber : 10mm
Bullet : 200gr FMJ/ FP
Ballistics : 1275fps/ 722 ft./lbs. - Glock 20
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=39
Although if my life depends on it, then I want something in the way of a 120mm sabot round and the m1a2 tank that its attached to for cover.
I use Mike Mcnett of Double Tap Ammo's reload data for my top 10mm loads. He posts this data in the 10mm Reloading forum on Glock Talk.
He has dropped the performance level with his factory loads abit compared to this reload data.
I have fired thousand of these rounds through both of my 10mm handguns a Colt Delta Elite and Glock 20. I have done major mods on my colt including a Barsto barrel and a KKM barrel in my G20.
Other important modifications where going to heavier recoil springs 22lbs in the G20 and 24lbs in the D/E. This is very important to slow the speed of the slide down for reliable bullet feed performance.
Other than having several extractors breaking in the D/E which I have been shooting since the fall of 1987 I have not had any problems.
He has dropped the performance level with his factory loads abit compared to this reload data.
I have fired thousand of these rounds through both of my 10mm handguns a Colt Delta Elite and Glock 20. I have done major mods on my colt including a Barsto barrel and a KKM barrel in my G20.
Other important modifications where going to heavier recoil springs 22lbs in the G20 and 24lbs in the D/E. This is very important to slow the speed of the slide down for reliable bullet feed performance.
Other than having several extractors breaking in the D/E which I have been shooting since the fall of 1987 I have not had any problems.
Both of the aftermarket barrels in my 10mm's have supported chambers.
It is very important on a Glock to get a supported aftermarket barrel as well as a different style rifling that will safely shoot cast bullets. When first developing loads for my stock G20 barrel I ended up with a few glock smiley cases which were due to the unsupported factory chambers. These same loads fired safely in the KKM barrel though.
The D/E stock barrel seems to be completely supported already. I can fire the exact same loads in my Stock barrel as the Barsto one.
Cam
It is very important on a Glock to get a supported aftermarket barrel as well as a different style rifling that will safely shoot cast bullets. When first developing loads for my stock G20 barrel I ended up with a few glock smiley cases which were due to the unsupported factory chambers. These same loads fired safely in the KKM barrel though.
The D/E stock barrel seems to be completely supported already. I can fire the exact same loads in my Stock barrel as the Barsto one.
Cam
I think the regardless of caliber, I would want to have any handgun over NO gun. Our conservation guys here out in BC carry 40 cal glocks and they say that will stop a bear. I wish I had a carry permit, Im probably the only one here who actually works in BC bear habitats all the time. I see 3 or 4 bears some days. Walking a few miles from our worksite out in the bush to take a dump at night with NO GUN, looking at bear tracks everywhere gets the heart pumping a bit.
I've seen numerous black bears shot at close range with handguns (mostly in traps) and a 40 S&W and a 10mm is devastating on them at these ranges.
my only reservation about a 10mm is the possibility of coming out of battery when pushed against something (like fur). A tap-rack-bang would also be difficult compared to pulling the trigger again on a DA revolver
my only reservation about a 10mm is the possibility of coming out of battery when pushed against something (like fur). A tap-rack-bang would also be difficult compared to pulling the trigger again on a DA revolver
the other thing to consider is that the average black bear is not that big (the one that mauled that female tree-planter in Ft Nellie last summer was 90kg), and even the average adult male grizzly is closer to 450-500 lbs not the 1100 lb lunkers everybody talks about.
I ordered it direct from KKM.
They just mailed it to me.
I don't know if they will do that now though.
I know of a few guys that are ordering the barrels and other parts then applying for a Canadian Import permit. When they get their permit which will be issued they go down to where they shipped the parts into the States and bring them back to the border pay Customs the 14% that they want and take their parts home.
They just mailed it to me.
I don't know if they will do that now though.
I know of a few guys that are ordering the barrels and other parts then applying for a Canadian Import permit. When they get their permit which will be issued they go down to where they shipped the parts into the States and bring them back to the border pay Customs the 14% that they want and take their parts home.
