120gr 7mm08 troubles- #62 potential issue

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh Laddie, see that one area on chart that is a wee bit diffrunt colour?
The IMR 4350?
This is a good indicator of a powder to try especially when you read the left side note................:wave:

I couldn't see Rons picture but I went to the Nosler site, again, I see what ya saying , I have no interewest to change out powders whatsoever.... I see the Varget is 41-45, Yet ADI Was a bees #### conservative at 42.5 - 45gr ...... (I'm going to have to look at what I originally posted there) but I remember dropping down to around 41?? or 40 to get that average accuracy with no thought of the Speeds....

I know my 139gr hornady load will shoot its group with minutes between firings but when ive had 3 left I punched them through fast and hot, an still held the Same POI an groups were not bad whatsoever,,, i'd never hunt like that with Kim but its good to know if I need to lay 3 deer down , or get the chance to lay 3 down i'll do it one after another :)

Rons right, my 140gr Woodleigh load is the tits- I like it more an more everyday.. but for shootin Fox an stuff the $$ adds up for my budgets.

id say il throw the 120s downrange for ####s an gigs but keep'er loading the Hornadys and woodleighs 140grs..

ive resized an FLS NNY 308 brass, which I think I mentioned.. maybe this has something to do with the pressures or something.. BTW every case goes thu the Case Length gauge / trimmer regardless, if it needs it , it gets a whip, if not its straight out.. so I don't think I'm squeezing my brass

HOWEVER!!

I'm getting some Marks on my PROJECTILE when I chamber a round and if it has any resistance (some shoulder dints) an some maybe just bot quite fully sized,(until Firing.....) but if I get the loaded round back out, just above the Neck, its a shiney graze mark... what could this be!
let me find a photo
 
Whats causing this ya rekon?

its from on top as picture shows, when it comes out of the chamber........

me thinks it must be when the CRF goes in... or out? that the projie is hitting on the top of the chamber somewhere?? yea?
IMG_4579SIERRAKIM_1.jpg~original

IMG_4584SIERRAKIM2_1.jpg~original
slight case don't in last round -R but no effect on loading..


heres one in a once fired, upside down and chambered into gun... to see how far out ...... too close?
IMG_4591upndown.jpg~original
 
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heres a line up for sake of the discussion...

these are 120gr Left, 139gr Middle and 140gr Woodleigh Right..... Each one has a Black line where the projectile hits the (284) dimensions....
Each cartridge shows where I have em loaded... an theres a few upside down showing the limits..

What can you tell from here?



-I think my Woodleighs are jumping a bit?? an the 120s are very close to touching? that itself can be the problem of accuracy yes? AND why my signs of Pressure are evident in higher charges??

IMG_4592projies7mm.jpg~original
 
Bearhunter, I'm not questioning that you have done a lot of shooting. Interesting that you first shot a 22 when you were seven. That is the same age that I first shot a 22! An older brother let me shoot at a grouse, twice, and I missed the grouse both times! However, my 22 event occurred in the very early 1930s.
What I am saying is you had nothing to do with this great period of shooting in the world, following WW2. You may not have even talked to anyone who knew it from personal observation. That makes it so hard for me in writing of it, because there probably is not another person on the CGN with personal observation about it.
Just think of it this way. In the years of WW2 there were no civilian firearms manufactured. At wars end a great many service men returned from war, from not only Canada and the USA, but from many other countries as well, including Australia, New Zealand and many countries in Europe, who wanted to get shooting and hunting. There was a tremendous rush to get firearms and everything related to them, on the market. BC sold more hunting licences when it had a population of 1.5 million, than they did when they had 4.5 million population!
Every descent sized town had shooting clubs and shooting was likely participated in by more people than any other sport. The gun writers of the big three magazines, Warren Page of Field and Stream, Townsend Whelen of Sports Afield, Jack O'Connor of OUtdoor Life and Elmer Keith, among many others, were writing articles and books which are highly sought after today. In short, it was the greatest period ever, in the world of shooting.
But what's the use of me talking to myself about it?
Cheers, Bruce

Bruce, you aren't talking to yourself about it. You are a couple of decades older than I am and I definitely appreciate anything you can tell us about that era.

My experiences were much different than your's but also very similar.

When I first started shooting, I had to hide the fact from my father who was a die hard anti firearms socialist. He came from a Prussian background and had relatives and friends on both sides during WWII. Many never came back and it bothered him to his core. For some reason he blamed firearms. He never did grasp the real reasons behind that war because he was to self traumatized by the results.

My first rifle was hidden in the barn for at least 5 years before he found out about it. He smashed it against the corner of the barn and managed to bend the barrel and break the stock. He and I had a rather uncomfortable talk about that and he finally bent enough to allow me to shoot and hunt. I have to give him that much, he knew his issues were unreasonable. Mind you the job of beheading chickens for dinner, downing hogs and steers was mine from the age of 10. He borrowed a rifle from the neighbor for the job because he didn't know I had a rifle stashed. He just couldn't bring himself to kill anything.

Anyway the neighbor that loaned us the rifle was a mentor for me. He had served with the Princess Pats in Korea. Nice guy but liked his rum and had a horrible temper. He liked me for some reason and gave me my first experiences with firearms. I think he had the hots for my mother.

Anyway he treated me with kindness and liked that I was interested in shooting and hunting. He was also the original Bubba. He just had to "sporterize" every milsurp he owned. He had seen some heavy fighting in Korea and although he appreciated the milsurps for what they were designed for he was adamant that they weren't acceptable as "hunting rifles."

I worked with Alan Lever in his store for awhile in my teens and had a chance to become a partner. This opened up a lot of opportunity for me but I was also a reader and liked some of George Bernard Shaw's writing. I had it in my head that I not only wanted worldly adventures but at the same time I could be a "world betterer." Lessons in reality soon straightened that out. Still, I never lost my appreciation for firearms and like yourself, retain it to this day.

Somewhere along the way I got bitten by the accuracy bug and had a lot of sometimes naive and good ole boys facts exposed for what they really were. Warren Page, Jim Carmichael, Atkins and Keith were my mentors. I still smile when I remember Mr Carmichael's book of short stories "Just Jim." I know you've read it but for those here that haven't, it's a great read full of laughs and quite honestly gives an insight to some of the mentalities that were very common in my younger years and maybe yours.

I met personally with Elmer Kieth and was a guest at his invitation to a Ranch where he was going to hunt Antelope in Wyoming. I got to shoot some of the thousands of ground squirrels in the pastures, well away from the antelope. It was a working ranch and well provisioned. The guided hunting trips were done by contracted guides that usually worked the ranch when the season was finished. I also met Jim Carmichael. Very pleasant man. I met him at P.O. Ackley's shop in Utah. He was there picking up a rifle and no it wasn't chambered in 270 Win but in 308 Win that one of Ackley's smiths had built for him on a pre 64 Mod 70 Winchester. I was lucky enough to be invited to lunch with Mr Ackley and his wife. I say lucky because racism was still pretty much alive and well at that time and my GF was a lovely mix of Cree/Negro. I think it may have been the way she looked in her custom motorcycle leathers that enamored her to them.

Mr Ackley was the main reason I got into the accuracy game. He did his best to cram as much knowledge into my head as he could. He showed me his shop and introduced me briefly to a few of his smiths.

He was the first person that told me about inconsistent jacket thicknesses being the biggest bugaboo at the time for bench rest shooters. He fully understood that there really wasn't any reason one hole groups slightly over the diameter of a bullet was unobtainable because of this and that each shot changed parameters as well. Very knowledgeable fellow. Did a lot of experimenting and writing about his results. Like you, he believed that a hunter/target shooter should be able to pick up a properly maintained rifle and not worry about where its point of impact would be under any conditions. He strove to make sure the custom rifles produced in his shop and any that were brought in for accurising did just that. The thing is, he knew his limitations and he also knew that every shooter is an entity unto him/herself.

He would guarantee any rifle that he was commissioned to accurise would shoot ten shots into 2 inches at 100 yards.

As for every town having a shooting range back in the days you talk about. I believe you and would like to hear more about it. I have always been lucky enough to have a decent place to shoot either on my own property or at approved ranges. Most of the ranges in our area have a long history. It has been an experience watching them become what they are. Some are now on the endangered list for multiple reasons. Mostly population expansion. The other most common is lethargy of the members. The old matches you describe were attended by everyone from the local preachers/teachers/police/mayor/store owners and every other walk of life. By the time I was in the game that was no longer the case and the Flower Kids from the sixties had done a lot of damage concerning the shooting sports.

Sadly the new shooters coming into the game are even more lethargic and other than shoot up the target backings don't volunteer to help maintain the grounds, buildings etc. The clubs will die out without that participation. Just paying a membership isn't enough. The membership fees seldom pay for the day to day expenses of operating a viable club.
 
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Brucey! You Da man!

I have no understanding of this! I'm a wee young takker!

WL

Amen! I had the privilege of having coffee and a couple of hours visiting with Bruce a month ago. Have told several people since then that he is a fountain of knowledge and experience.

Of course, he is 91 years young, so that may have something to do with it.
Ted
 
Bullet rubbing in the chamber in my experience usually means very poor runout. Or in simple terms, crooked ammo. The quickest way to see if you have crooked ammo is roll your cartridge on a flat surface and keep a close eye on the bullet tip. If it moves at all you have lots of runout. If you have a runout measuring tool, even better. If you have runout issues, research here and afar as there is a lot of info on setting up your brass and dies for success. if you have more than 6 thou runout you will get poor results on the paper. if you have more than 10 your chamber will correct the bullet as you close the bolt....somewhat. Your goal is to get under 6 preferably under 4 and even better 2 thou runout...then you will have match quality ammo.

The deeper you set a bullet the more pressure you will encounter. If you are running on the hot side then a jam may be better than a lot of jump. Again, too many variables. First measure over all cartridge length to touch. Then start your hunting load development using a set length say 10 thou jump is a good starting point. But for hunting I prefer 60 jump using normal hunting bullets more often than not this jump just works for me. Later on in load development try various jumps and jam AFTER you find a suitable node (see the berger bullet article on this subject). If you are using monos....stick with 60 jump and do your load development. My 2c
 
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Thanks Ted, and our down under friend, for your comments.
And Gerald, I commend you for the great amount of shooting you have done. We have been talking since the time that gun shows arrived in our area, but only for brief moments, as we had tables to care for. I think it is time we took a break and had some big time conversations!
Bruce
 
Thanks Ted, and our down under friend, for your comments.
And Gerald, I commend you for the great amount of shooting you have done. We have been talking since the time that gun shows arrived in our area, but only for brief moments, as we had tables to care for. I think it is time we took a break and had some big time conversations!
Bruce

Your on Bruce. It would be my pleasure. Mind you, we could always ask for side by side tables. They usually stick me in a corner at the top of the stage in Salmon Arm. I like it there because everyone coming up to take a look has to peruse my wares. It's sort of a well kept secret how well things move up there. I don't get any walk in buys other than the high end stuff that most of the other vendors don't want to buy or can't afford. Still, I seem to have developed a small but continuing relationship with many customers that will only come to my table to sell anything and some come just to see the milsurps and accessories I'm moving as I like to dicker.
 
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Bullet rubbing in the chamber in my experience usually means very poor runout. Or in simple terms, crooked ammo. The quickest way to see if you have crooked ammo is roll your cartridge on a flat surface and keep a close eye on the bullet tip. If it moves at all you have lots of runout. If you have a runout measuring tool, even better. If you have runout issues, research here and afar as there is a lot of info on setting up your brass and dies for success. My 2c


I see what ya sayin, but the more I watch it go into the chamber, its on a decent angle? an could be flicking it on the way in or out perhaps because of shape? i'l have to double check if the other rounds an branded projectiles touch at all too..


say the FLS from 308 to 708 may of distributed the brass unevenly?
will fireforming them iron it out a bit?
 
Those marks on your bullets may be coming from the edge inside your chamber where the neck/throat meet. There isn't much taper to a 7-08 case but if your chamber is tight and the juncture edge is sharp it will cause this situation to happen. Usually you see this sort of thing on cartridges with tapered bodies. My 7-08 is built on a Mod 7 Remington and when I first installed the barrel I had a similar issue. Brand new reamer left a razor sharp edge.

From what I can see on your photos it does't look like any of the jacket is scraping off in a manner that will effect accuracy. That's what happened in my rifle as well. The mark was more of a rub than a scrape.

It was easily cleaned up with a throat reamer and likely the edge could have been dulled with a brass rod coated with valve grinding compound. I had the throater with a beveled edge and it was equipped with a rotating guide so I just chose to use it instead. Didn't make any difference to accuracy but it did eliminate the blemish.
 
Have you tried the 120grn TTSX bullets?? Both of the 7-08 rifles I load them into as well as my 7x57 Mauser really shoot them well. They are long for weight because they are monolithic in design and some rifles just seem to shoot them better.

The 7x57 gave me a bit of trouble at first but it just seemed that the faster I loaded them the better they shot. That is a good thing IMHO because those bullets are rumored to be reluctant to expand on game at lower velocities. I saw two Deer killed with those bullets last fall and they performed perfectly. One was shot at 50 yards and the other about 200 yds. The close Deer dropped after taking a half dozen steps and the far animal dropped within 50 yards. The far Deer was shot through both lungs, just behind the leg. The bullets passed through but the exit holes were about 1.5 cm diameter.
 
Fire forming the brass will correct some of the problem if it is run out you are experiencing. Another way to check is simply chamber the round without feeding from the mag if your CRF bolt head with allow. If the blemishes go away...bingo...it is a feeding issue. Ditto on the slow feeding issue. Your CRF bolt head may like faster than slowly feeding. Try running the rounds in quickly by palming the bolt handle.

Be sure to chamfer your necks and set up your bullet in line with the die when seating the best you can. Smooth seating is the goal. If you have a hard time seating the bullets then you could come into problems with runout. Make sure your base is clean and free of debris. I have noticed the same marks even when making the bullet where the brass is cockeyed going in to the seater die and leaves the same type of blemishes.
 
Ive used these 120gr Sierras on a few animals now, they are certainly OK for the smaller species of Deer and 'work' for the big ones however shot placement is crucial , unlike when using more suited weight for calibre..

I shot a spike buck broadside and the projectile entered, separated into 3 main pieces and hit an killed a deer standing directly beside it..... but did not exit further more. small Fallow deer and Bucks, no problem. even up close , the projectile sperated an lost most of its jacket, however penetrated enough to instant kill.

on the Sambar I shot a lung shot Hind and it ran considerable dstance, most likely due to only one hole in. penetration not great... would only use if I had nothing else on me at the time. in future.


Still...... great havin a 139gr interlock and a 120gr sierra with workable POIs at 100ms out to 300.

Cheeers fellas!!

WL
 
I'm hearing that and might not be worth it in the end if you think about how many times you fire the 'economys' compared to how many times you would of needed to pull the trigger on animals with the 'deluxe' loads already sighted an dialled.....

Heres the 120gr on a buck, Entry an shot angle is as its running away angling fairly away.
bullet is on neck side
IMG_5010wound.jpg

IMG_5009woun.jpg
 
All of Mine and a Few friends all with different rifles Fine the Barnes 120 TTSX shoots BEST over any other 120 gr ers with either Varget or H414 (mt fav) H414 gives more FPS ! jmo RJ

I KNOW its a 2 year old thread but i'm Sick and Bored ! :p

all good, still relevant, i loaded the rest of these 120s an find they shoot good at 200 an 300 with my 140gr poi, duno what happened there but im hittin steels at 300 odd with it.... deers next.

they work ok 120s, awesome to shoot... may use them more often now as i just get to pick up my new 30-06 maybe tomorow and plan on using 150, so the 7 can drop down a bit into that 243 bracket im missing...

next down is the 222 with 50gr..

makes sense
 
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