.17 Super Magnum

stubblejumper said:
17HMR ammunition is still way too high compared to 17Mach2 ammunition. Using the exact same bullet, which is the most expensive component, the 17HMR ammunition costs twice as much. If the new rimfire ammunition is close to that of the 17HMR, it is likely the 17HMR sales that will suffer dramatically. If the price of ammunition for the new rimfire is close to that of the 17Hornet, then the new rimfire will likely fail miserably. In order to succed, the new rimfire either needs to offer more performance than the 17HMR for a similar price, or similar performance to the 17Hornet for a lower price. If it doesn't do either, it really has nothing to offer.
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Stub
It is a rimfire going 3000fps this will either interest you or it will not. The new hornet is going 3650 with a 20gr bullet from the factory ammo. This interests me so I have bought a rifle in this new round. FS
 
hawk-i said:
So what you're saying is, for those that really want the new 17WSM it would be prudent to hold off on the initial urge purchase and wait for the "big sale to unload what didn't sell".
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You don't often see very much in the way of clearance items at P&D some how a huge % of the inventory they buy gets sold. FS
 
Stub
It is a rimfire going 3000fps this will either interest you or it will not. The new hornet is going 3650 with a 20gr bullet from the factory ammo. This interests me so I have bought a rifle in this new round. FS
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In order to be a marketing success, it will need to attract a lot of buyers. In order to attract a lot of buyers, it needs to either offer increased performance over the 17HMR for a similar price, or performance approaching the 17Hornet for a considerably lower price. If it doesn't do either, it really doesn't offer much, so it's chances of succeeding are limited.
 
hoytcanon said:
Given the case width of the .27 nailers, an eight shot rotary mag is an engineering feat! And they put all that R&D into a $375 gun... if this proves to be true, I'll eat my shorts... bookmark this and you can quote me on it later! ;)
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Uh Oh!!! Looks like I'm eating my shorts! I might also have to revise my declaration of not wanting one of these 17 WSM Savage rifles... check this out;

http://www.varminter.com/new-savage-bmag-rifle-in-17-winchester-super-magnum/
 
Maybe Savage will let some of the features of that new rifle trickle down into its other rimfire offerings, that would be bloody exciting.

-Grant
 
This is the Winchester Low Wall. It will retail for about $1400 - $1500 in Canada. This is a Winchester "Shot Show only" product for this year, it is not a cataloge item.
http://s1171.beta.photobucket.com/user/8ballphil/media/image_zps811b0377.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
This is the new Savage B.MAG. This rifle has been built from the ground up to fit the larger rimfire cartridge. Should retail up here for under $400 or so.
http://s1171.beta.photobucket.com/user/8ballphil/media/image_zps55be5030.jpg.html?sort=3&o=8
This next photo is simply a size comparison with the standard 17 HMR and the 22 mag.
http://s1171.beta.photobucket.com/user/8ballphil/media/image_zpsc807d828.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5
A velocity chart, again comparing the 17 WSM with the 17 HMR and the 22 mag.
http://s1171.beta.photobucket.com/user/8ballphil/media/image_zps0a2e485e.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
As above, comparing trajectory.
http://s1171.beta.photobucket.com/user/8ballphil/media/image_zps6e32685b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
As above, comparing wind drift.
http://s1171.beta.photobucket.com/user/8ballphil/media/image_zpsfa6c126e.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3
As above, comparing energy.
http://s1171.beta.photobucket.com/user/8ballphil/media/image_zpsf2cd4655.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4

As you can see, there are some very real advantages to the 17 WSM, as compared to the 17 HMR and the 22 Mag. Whether or not the extra cost is worth it will be a personal choice. The biggest reason that I don't think this will take off like the 17 HMR is primarily due to the lack of availability of suitable firearms. Unlike the 17 HMR, firearms manufacturers can't simply screw a barrel onto their existing 22 Mag platform and be good to go. Instead, it will require them to build a completely new action to house the larger round. Ruger may be able to modify their 77/22 Hornet action and make it work, but this is only speculation on my part. I like the round and intend to at least try one in the Winchester, the Savage feels pretty cheap to me. Whether it flies for the long term, time will tell!
 
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stubblejumper said:
In order to be a marketing success, it will need to attract a lot of buyers. In order to attract a lot of buyers, it needs to either offer increased performance over the 17HMR for a similar price, or performance approaching the 17Hornet for a considerably lower price. If it doesn't do either, it really doesn't offer much, so it's chances of succeeding are limited.
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Stub
Are you an electrician or are you in sales and marketing? FS
 
Stub
Are you an electrician or are you in sales and marketing? FS
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I do hold a couple of trades tickets, but for the last few years I have been in a different position, where I listen to a lot of sales pitches, and have seen for myself, that to sell a product, or a service, you need to offer something that the competitors either don't offer, or charge more for. In any case, it will only take a few years to see if this new cartridge is a huge success, or if it fades away.
 
rar said:
interesting to see how much ammo per box is going to cost .
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Quoted from Phil at P&D

P of PDent said:
OK I just received some specific info from one distributor about guns and ammo availibility and pricing. The first gun availble will be the Savage 17 WSM. It will be a blued/ synth. sporter barrel, accutrigger with an 8 round rotary mag...$375. Ammo will be 20 grn JHP or SP, 3000 FPS...@$19/ box of 50 and 25 grn SP, 2600 FPS...@$21/ box of 50. These descriptions and prices are as exact as I could nail down at the time. No ETA on availibility. We are anticipating fairly heavy demand and we have already placed our order for guns and ammo. Note Winchester is the exclusive ammo manufacturer at this time and Savage the only source of guns however we anticipate this to increase in the future. Phil.
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Was posted earlier in this thread
 
stubblejumper said:
In order to be a marketing success, it will need to attract a lot of buyers. In order to attract a lot of buyers, it needs to either offer increased performance over the 17HMR for a similar price, or performance approaching the 17Hornet for a considerably lower price. If it doesn't do either, it really doesn't offer much, so it's chances of succeeding are limited.
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Stub

Are you more informed than the boys and girls that run Winchester and Savage? You think they haven't put enough thought into this round? Do ya think that they thought geez what it doesn't go very well in Canada, or do you think they give a flying screw about the Canadian market. The round clearly does nothing for you, but what about the guy that doesn't have a 17HMR and walks into a gunshop and says whats new in rimfire. I have several 17 HMR's, I have 17 Hm2 that you are fond of, I have hornets and all kind of small caliber rifles and it sounds like fun to me. I do not understand your need to convince as many folks as you can that this round not going to be great, FS
 
Fassteel said:
Stub

Are you more informed than the boys and girls that run Winchester and Savage? You think they haven't put enough thought into this round? Do ya think that they thought geez what it doesn't go very well in Canada, or do you think they give a flying screw about the Canadian market. The round clearly does nothing for you, but what about the guy that doesn't have a 17HMR and walks into a gunshop and says whats new in rimfire. I have several 17 HMR's, I have 17 Hm2 that you are fond of, I have hornets and all kind of small caliber rifles and it sounds like fun to me. I do not understand your need to convince as many folks as you can that this round not going to be great, FS
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I don't see him trying to convince anybody of anything.... he is just saying we'll see. The "boys and girls that run Winchester and Savage" have erred before... they do their best in R&D and marketing, but sometimes the product just doesn't find a niche large enough to support longevity and continued manufacturing... as Stubblejumper said earlier... "in a few years we'll know"... I agree, only time will tell... if the gun makes sense to you and works for your needs thats great... in the situation of a NEW shooter walking in to a shop looking for a rimfire... I hope the sales people direct him to a .22 LR, after that I imagine he would choose the 17 WSM over the HMR... in my situation though, for me (reloading K-Hornets)... it makes no sense.
 
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Fassteel said:
Stub

Are you more informed than the boys and girls that run Winchester and Savage? You think they haven't put enough thought into this round? Do ya think that they thought geez what it doesn't go very well in Canada, or do you think they give a flying screw about the Canadian market. The round clearly does nothing for you, but what about the guy that doesn't have a 17HMR and walks into a gunshop and says whats new in rimfire. I have several 17 HMR's, I have 17 Hm2 that you are fond of, I have hornets and all kind of small caliber rifles and it sounds like fun to me. I do not understand your need to convince as many folks as you can that this round not going to be great, FS
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he can't share his opinion? it seems as if you're taking this personally, did you take part in developing this round?

seeing as it's only an advertised 450 fps faster than the HMR and the majority of people buying one won't see any practical advantage over the 17 HMR in everyday use, i wouldn't exactly call it great. the 17HMR was very successful because there was only .22lr and .22 mag around when it was introduced and the 17 WSM has far more competition than the HMR did. therefore, stubblejumper is correct in saying that this new round needs to have the "wow factor" to stick around. unfortunately, i'm not seeing it...



PS...to suggest that a new product will be successful simply because a company has "put enough thought into this round" is silly. following that logic, every product ever put on the market would be successful. the public decides if a product will be a success, not those who built it ;)
 
canadian hunter312 said:
with comparable bullets the 17 WSM is advertised at a measly 450 fps faster than the 17 HMR. seeing as my first reaction was "why bother", i guess i'm not as easily excited as some...
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Why bother some people ream out there guns for akly improved and only gain 200 fps and they see a need to bother not you but some people I think 450 fps is a great gain and looking forward to geting one and maby this will bring out a nother new rimfire round aswell
 
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