17hm2 in a very unrestorable 1849 open top?

H Wally

H Wally

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Here's a two part question to get the blackpowder crowd all riled up.

1849 colt pocket. Very badly bubba'd and in miserable condition. Rifling absent, cylnder gone, frame strong but abused with what appears to have been a rasp. Numbers not matching when present.


So, two questions:

1) with a newly made kirst konverter style cylinder/gated breech ring, sleeved barrel, new arbour wedge and new arbour pin, do you think the gun would hold up to the average commercial 17hm2 rimfire cartridge? If not, is there another rimmed, centerfire or rimfire cartridge commercially available that would work? Max OAL is 1 inch.

Not looking to push it, just want something cheap and available to shoot. I already reload more calibers than I have time for, so want something that I can just buy and plink.

2) Considering the gun is otherwise a parts gun, is this an abomination against historical firearms? The only salvageable parts that could be used on other guns won't be altered, as the barrel is smooth and there's no cylinder.
 
Unless you are a machinist a one-off custom cylinder will be very expensive. Also I think .25acp or handloaded .32 acp would be a better choice (or even .32 rimfire if you can find the ammo),.
 
Why not get a new arbour pin, cylinder and barrel assembly??
Heck maybe the new cylinder will just slide on the old pin if your lucky.

If you not terribly offended by c-b its probably the cheapest plinker going.

I would sure love to see a picture:cheers:
 
fiscus said:
Unless you are a machinist a one-off custom cylinder will be very expensive. Also I think .25acp or handloaded .32 acp would be a better choice (or even .32 rimfire if you can find the ammo),.
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I would consider 25 acp or 32 acp, but last time I suggested that I got shot down because it would introduce that whole "arbitrary 25 and 32 cal prohib" grey area, that, though unapplicable to antiques, was best left alone so that negative attention wasn't drawn to antique firearms.

Musketfire said:
Why not get a new arbour pin, cylinder and barrel assembly??
Heck maybe the new cylinder will just slide on the old pin if your lucky.

If you not terribly offended by c-b its probably the cheapest plinker going.

I would sure love to see a picture:cheers:
Click to expand...

I could leave the arbour pin be, but I suspect by the condition of the rest of the gun, it'll need replacing.

I'm thinking I will keep my eyes open for an original cylinder and functional barrel, then I can switch as my preference dictates. I really like colt conversions though, so the intellectual exercise of figuring out if and how it could be done is half the fun :D

My main interest was having something that wasn't black powder (no mandatory post trip cleaning session) and was cartridge fed for easier time reloading. Plus I like odd projects.

Here's a pic of the one that started the migration (Won't be converted, I like it as-is:)) Had some issues, and still is a little fussy about timing, but a very nice little gun overall. Probably one of my favourites. Just has character:)

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fiscus said:
Also I think .17rimfire is longer than 1"
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17hmr is definitely longer, but 17hm2 is listed as exactly 1" in several cartridge guides. Plus to verify that, I compared a side by side image of a 17hm2 next to a 22lr and they're just about identical to the naked eye.


kevin.303 said:
17HM2 is short enough, the problem with 25 or 32 is that would make it prohib. How about just a plain old .22 LR?
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25 and 32 would make a firearm prohib. An antique is not a firearm, so there enters the grey area I was trying to avoid. If I went and hired a lawyer I'd probably be ok, but I'd rather just have it chambered in something that there are no laws related to.

22LR is on the "non-antique" list so it would negate the purpose of having an antique colt unfortunately.
 
with a 17 pill you better have perfect lock up and cylinder to bore line up or your gona have some wicked side spray :p
 
The backing plate on the converter could be wider than back of the original frame with a cut out for reloading the cylinder. Proper liners in the chambers and a gap to the barrel to allow for a forcing cone from the barrel liner might work? Break out the file....
Definitely need to see pictures of this build, maybe your new one will fit the bill?.....
 
DANCESWITHEMPTIES said:
The backing plate on the converter could be wider than back of the original frame with a cut out for reloading the cylinder. Proper liners in the chambers and a gap to the barrel to allow for a forcing cone from the barrel liner might work? Break out the file....
Definitely need to see pictures of this build, maybe your new one will fit the bill?.....
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Hmmmmmmm - those're some interesting suggestions there.

If a new cylinder were made that was short enough to accomodate a sleeve with forcing cone without needing the bore reamed, one could possibly make non-permanent 17hm2 conversions or 25acp conversion with a removeable liner, new cylinder and back plate. I originally thought that a sleeve would need to be permanently fitted to the barrel... but I guess if it fits right, no reason.

For extra wall thickness on the sleeve 17hm2 would be better, but we still haven't resolved the whole "is the pressure too high for the colt design" topic yet. Input?
 
Allen headed pinch screw drilled & tapped through the underside of the muzzle end of the barrel would probably be all that's needed to keep a properly fitted barrel liner in place (JB Weld it in if you never want it out!). A chamber liner that is slightly counter sunk to the back of the cylinder could be fastened in many different ways from permanently staked in & tacked. To removable, with a flanged end on the chamber liner counter sunk to the back of the cylinder and fastened with a pin or clip....
If the liners & back plate & arbor were made with serious steel, maybe some of your pressure issues could be dealt with as well?
Sounds like an interesting project!
 
DANCESWITHEMPTIES said:
Allen headed pinch screw drilled & tapped through the underside of the muzzle end of the barrel would probably be all that's needed to keep a properly fitted barrel liner in place (JB Weld it in if you never want it out!). A chamber liner that is slightly counter sunk to the back of the cylinder could be fastened in many different ways from permanently staked in & tacked. To removable, with a flanged end on the chamber liner counter sunk to the back of the cylinder and fastened with a pin or clip....
If the liners & back plate & arbor were made with serious steel, maybe some of your pressure issues could be dealt with as well?
Sounds like an interesting project!
Click to expand...

I was thinking the barrel liner could be held in place just by friction and pressure. Biggest problem might be the repeated blast from the cylinder against the forcing cone might wedge it in place or even start forcing it down the barrel if the sleeve was too thin.

I'm thinking the best solution to a problem where the cartridge pressure would be likely to eventually deform the arbour pin or wedge but not create dangerous pressures would be to make proper steel cylinder, back plate and arbour pin and then use soft iron wedges and replace them as need be.
 
Once talk to a gunsmith in Edmonton about a barrel liner for a repro 1858. His answer was what I stated above & this was for 38 special loads, light loads of course. He figured one pinch bolt/ screw would be enough. & that liner had to be installed from the front, so no forcing cone on that one other than what the original barrel had. Yours could be installed from the back, so you would have two points of retention. I think from that stand point your good to go. I think cylinder & back plate will be the challenging part.
 
I don't believe I'm even reading this!

Why not let it go to a home where somebody will try to restore it?

If you must destroy something, destroy something in current production. At least it can be replaced.

I just don't believe it.
.
 
If he is using a rat parts gun that would have no other value, then I have no problems...
Plus it's own property, so if he wants to turn a Walker Colt into a shotgun, who am I to be his judge....:D:p I agree wholeheartedly some antiques should not be messed with at all, but if its a rat.........
 
smellie said:
I don't believe I'm even reading this!

Why not let it go to a home where somebody will try to restore it?

If you must destroy something, destroy something in current production. At least it can be replaced.

I just don't believe it.
.
Click to expand...

I don't think you did read it, or you'd understand that nothing was being destroyed:p

The frame, though ugly as sin, won't be altered. The barrel is completely shot out, and the cylinder is absent.

1) No alterations to the frame, which is really the only part that's useable for an original 1849 anyways.

2)The barrel may be religned if it's completely gone, but with danceswithempties's suggestion it may actually work that a removeable sleeve could be made, since open tops allow access to the barrel from behind.

3)A new cylinder would be made, since the old one is absent and the alterations required to an original would be more of a pain than simply making a new one (IE trying to install a smaller chamber into a .31 cal chamber by either lining with a semi finished chamber or fitting a blank and rechambering... to me that just screams problems)


So... yah. Whatever you were reading wasn't what I wrote:p;)
 
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