1886 OE.W.F.G Steyr Kropatschek w/Bayonet (Gun ####)

[sean69]

Are you a reloader? I'm pretty sure there aren't any commercial loads in existence in 8x60R.

I haven't ever made 8x60R loads before but I understand brass can be formed with some work from .358 winchester.

For bullets - have you slugged the bore?

nope - not a reloader, but that sure is looking like it's in my not too distant future!

Also have not slugged the bore - in fact I'm so new to this, I'm not sure what slugging the bore actually entails! [though I am sure I'll figure it out sooner or later ]

 

[MauserMike]

Shooting obsolete chambered milsurps are certainly a good way to get into it! How did you shoot your .43 Mauser?

If you are selling the 71/84 I'll take all the empty or loaded brass you have LOL PM me! I guess the rifle is bubba'd from what you said, too bad I should put some pics of mine up.

 

[sean69]

Shooting obsolete chambered milsurps are certainly a good way to get into it! How did you shoot your .43 Mauser?

If you are selling the 71/84 I'll take all the empty or loaded brass you have LOL PM me! I guess the rifle is bubba'd from what you said, too bad I should put some pics of mine up.

I did not shoot the 71/84, all 3 showed up on Saturday evening... not sure about the 71.84.... bubba screwed it up, so if I can find new wood & a barrel ... that's all that's borked on it ... mmmm ... hmmmm

 

[smellie]

You can rework .348 Winchester brass (three-FORTY-eight) for the Kropatschek and have your full-length 8x56R Guedes or 8x60R Krop casings (cases were the same but God alone knows how it got 2 different names, apart from length). Regular .358W brass is not good: it is just a .308 opened out to a .35; you need something MUCH larger and RIMMED, hence the .348, which is the final remaining remnant of the .50-110W an so is big enough.

First, you chuck the brass into a lathe and bevel the rims as an original, then neck it down to 8mm. Anneal case-mouths, then start loading. You can do this if you start with .348.

Remember, this was the LAST Black-powder cartridge to be designed as such: pressures are LOW and the rifles will not handle high pressures. Yes, the .303 also was originally a black-powder cartridge but it was DESIGNED for smokeless, as was the rifle. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Brass CAN be made from 8x50R LEBEL but the only brass available (from Trade-Ex) is Serbian Partizan which has a flat base. For many rifles, it NEEDS the rim bevelled. Nice thing is that you can actually GET IT for the first time in 60 years! Krop brass made from Lebel brass will work, but it will be about a quarter-inch short.

Krop should be an excellent candidate for the C.E. Harris UNIVERSAL load: 13 grains of Red Dot with a 180 CAST bullet. Gives about 1800 ft/sec and roughly 2 MOA and your brass should last halfway to forever. Correct bullet for the Krop is an uglybignasty .326" monster weighing in at 247 grains. If using the short brass, seat your 180s 'WAY out.

Hope this is some help.
.

 

[MauserMike]

You can rework .348 Winchester brass (three-FORTY-eight) for the Kropatschek .

ooops thanks for correcting my typo will fix above!

I did not shoot the 71/84, all 3 showed up on Saturday evening... not sure about the 71.84.... bubba screwed it up, so if I can find new wood & a barrel ... that's all that's borked on it ... mmmm ... hmmmm

Good luck with that.... pretty unlikely you are going to find that.

 

[Andy]

Some good info here on the Kropatschek M1886 and the 8X60R. I have made a point of shooting every gun I've ever owned (including my Belgian Albini), and I have shot my Kropatschek exactly four times, using four different powders.

As pointed out, the 8X60R is essentially a 348 Win necked down to 8mm, so I used 348 Win starting loads for cast bullets. The throat is loooong, and the original bullet was about 250 grs, so a heavy bullet works best. My gun's groove diameter was about 0.325", so I wanted something fatter than that. I used the Custom Lee "8mm Maximum" sold on-line by MidSouth Shooting Supply - it was supposed to drop at 235 grs and 0.324", but mine (and many others) drop at 245 grs and 0.328" - perfect. I size it to 0.326". The Lee 0.329" mold made for the 8X56R works well, but is a bit light (read short) to get closest to the rifling.

With that bullet, you do not want to exceed 1800 fps (and then only with the slowest powders), and you should aim for about 1500 fps. Here's what I used:

SR-4759 - 20.0 grs - 1525 fps
H4227 - 22.0 grs - 1500 fps
H4198 - 28.0 grs - 1650 fps
IMR-3031 - 34.0 grs - 1775 fps

SR-4759 is my go-to powder for cast bullets, developing decent MV's at moderate pressures, typically good accuracy, and reliable ignition. Red Dot is a great powder as well, and 13.0 grs is indeed a good universal load for rifle cartridges. You will get reliable ignition, but the MV cannot approach that of slower powders - with 13.0 grs you'd be in the 1400 fps range with the 245 gr bullet.

 

[desporterizer]

I use 348 win brass, the same maxx bullet Andy uses & 12gr of unique. Works quite well. I always wanted to try jacketed bullets but haven't gotten round to it yet.

 

[sean69]

WOW... thanks for all the info on the rounds guys... great info!

However, I started disassembling & cleaning it yesterday. have not got the magazine out yet so have not been able to remove the barrel/action.... looks like some really heavy pitting underneath the barrel. and the spring is broken [not a problem I guess, I can just weld/solder it]

If I get it apart - more pics!

-sean

 

[MauserMike]

The magazine spring? Numrich down in the states has some Kropatschek parts listed but not a mag spring. I looked because I was able to source one for my full military dress 71/84 from there.

But I'm sure its not rocket science to track down something that will fit and do the same job.

 

[sean69]

The magazine spring? Numrich down in the states has some Kropatschek parts listed but not a mag spring. I looked because I was able to source one for my full military dress 71/84 from there.

But I'm sure its not rocket science to track down something that will fit and do the same job.

just looking at it, it's in pretty good shape except for the one break, some solder & heat shrink tubing will get it back into shape no problem... it's the least of my worries.

just wondering how extensive pitting has to be on a barrel before it becomes unsafe to shoot? Is that something that can be repaired?

 

[smellie]

BIG PROBLEM with the Krop is that the MAGAZINE TUBE (which is very thin brass) goes down through the forestock and LOCKS INTO the front of the Receiver.

I you try to pull the barreled action off the rifle with this still in place, you will DESTROY utterly the Magazine Tube...... and there have been NO replacements for over 125 years.

SOLUTION is simple and easy.

Disassemble the Magazine and PULL the MAGAZINE TUBE FORWARD a quarter-inch or so. You now will be able to lift out the barreled action with no troubles at all. Reassemble in reverse order.

Hope this helps.
.

 

[sean69]

BIG PROBLEM with the Krop is that the MAGAZINE TUBE (which is very thin brass) goes down through the forestock and LOCKS INTO the front of the Receiver.

I you try to pull the barreled action off the rifle with this still in place, you will DESTROY utterly the Magazine Tube...... and there have been NO replacements for over 125 years.

SOLUTION is simple and easy.

Disassemble the Magazine and PULL the MAGAZINE TUBE FORWARD a quarter-inch or so. You now will be able to lift out the barreled action with no troubles at all. Reassemble in reverse order.

Hope this helps.
.

Actually I got the magazine out without TOOOO much trouble.

I tried the crushed ice trick first = massive fail.

Then I ran a knotted rag on a string soaked in mineral spirits through a few times to clean out the gunk [and gunk it had!!]

next I had some mold making rubber chunks left over from another project, I just cut a slightly over sized plug, tripled up on the twine, placed the plug ahead of my knotted rag & tried to pull it through.

Took two of us, but it came out smoothly and undamaged. see below....

The rust on the receiver is no where near as bad as it looks, the barrel... hmmm I have concerns. would you shoot this gun?

 

[desporterizer]

I have shot worse.

 

[smellie]

They were used in some of the worst tropical climates in the world: Angola, Mozambique, and it is a small miracle that ANY survived at all. There were very few actually made and most of the remainders ended up here.

It was a black-powder cartridge and pressures were low. KEEP the pressures low and, yes, I would shoot it.

If it were for a 50,000-psi cartridge, likely I would say 'trash it'...... but it isn't.

Pressures low it should be okay. I have (unwittingly) fired a Lee-Enfield which was this bad, once we got it down, and it didn't let go. Pressures were 3 times what yours runs at.

And you will have the immense pleasure of shooting a truly RARE rifle. We have a few here but, in the rest of the word, they are pretty much an unknown, something you see a picture of in a book. You have that smoother-than-silk solid-steel creation in your hands.

Clean out the rust from inside the woodwork (of course), get some oil or very light grease onto that barrel where it is corroded..... and have fun.

Hope this helps.
.

 

[sean69]

They were used in some of the worst tropical climates in the world: Angola, Mozambique, and it is a small miracle that ANY survived at all. There were very few actually made and most of the remainders ended up here.

It was a black-powder cartridge and pressures were low. KEEP the pressures low and, yes, I would shoot it.

If it were for a 50,000-psi cartridge, likely I would say 'trash it'...... but it isn't.

Pressures low it should be okay. I have (unwittingly) fired a Lee-Enfield which was this bad, once we got it down, and it didn't let go. Pressures were 3 times what yours runs at.

And you will have the immense pleasure of shooting a truly RARE rifle. We have a few here but, in the rest of the word, they are pretty much an unknown, something you see a picture of in a book. You have that smoother-than-silk solid-steel creation in your hands.

Clean out the rust from inside the woodwork (of course), get some oil or very light grease onto that barrel where it is corroded..... and have fun.

Hope this helps.
.

Well that's all good news, getting pretty excited, I think it will all come back nicely, the rust in the stock is just sitting on top, a toothbrush & some fine steel wool will take care of that, follow it up with some what, linseed oil or tula [is that correct?] oil & it should be just fine again. I'll bet a shotgun bore brush will clean out the tube in the stock where the magazine goes quite nicely, some more steel wool & drag another rag with linseed through it. A .22 bore brush [the nylon kind ] should do the cleaning rod channel. Not sure I want to take the rod lug out - it looks like more damage would be caused... leaving it alone.

All sound about right?

 

[smellie]

Yeah, clean out that channel, oil it with raw linseed oil to help get some spring back into the wood. Should be okay after that.

Clean out the magazine tube channel with a .50 bore brush or something like that, possibly as big as a 28-bore brush. I think I would use something like Hoppe's for this job.

If you intend to put linseed oil, EVEN raw, into the magazine channel, be VERY careful. The stuff likes to set up like GLUE and then you are scrood, blued and tattooed. If you want some linseed oil in there to preserve the wood, do it the factory way: wipe it in, then wipe the channel clean of any excess, then let her stand for a couple of days. OIL the brass Magazine Tube (after you have cleaned the corrosion and verdigris from it) and slip it in. It SHOULD go in very easily and it should also COME OUT easily.

Isn't that positive cartridge-feed stop just a wonder??? If the rest of the world had adopted that, tube magazines would have remained practical, apart from the change in balance.

Lovely rifle. Looking for some nice photos when she's back on the range!
.

 

[sean69]

Yeah, clean out that channel, oil it with raw linseed oil to help get some spring back into the wood. Should be okay after that.

Clean out the magazine tube channel with a .50 bore brush or something like that, possibly as big as a 28-bore brush. I think I would use something like Hoppe's for this job.

If you intend to put linseed oil, EVEN raw, into the magazine channel, be VERY careful. The stuff likes to set up like GLUE and then you are scrood, blued and tattooed. If you want some linseed oil in there to preserve the wood, do it the factory way: wipe it in, then wipe the channel clean of any excess, then let her stand for a couple of days. OIL the brass Magazine Tube (after you have cleaned the corrosion and verdigris from it) and slip it in. It SHOULD go in very easily and it should also COME OUT easily.

Isn't that positive cartridge-feed stop just a wonder??? If the rest of the world had adopted that, tube magazines would have remained practical, apart from the change in balance.

Lovely rifle. Looking for some nice photos when she's back on the range!
.

I was tinkering with the thought of some kind of coating on the magazine... I can tack it on a clear powder coating run with some of my business partner's bike parts ... may be overkill... maybe a cold bluing job? [I have tons of spare brass to test that on!] I dunno... unprotected brass just loves to tarnish.