1911 Hand Cannon :The 460 Rowland

One Lung Wonder said:
Any chance you could shoot that again at 20~25 yards and get a chronograph on that Turbo?

That looks promising, considering that it is the first group with a hand cannon...
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That's in the plan, but may not happen for a bit, considering this was my first visit to the range since June. I should be able to get there in the next couple weeks though. I'll have to go to the outdoor range though, one of the guys last night was complaining about the muzzle blast (while standing 40' behind me) and wondered what I was shooting (no magnums and nothing bigger than .45 at the indoor range). I don't think he bought it when I said it was basically just a hot 45 acp and the comp makes it seem worse than it is. One thing I did notice is that all the brass was in pretty much the same spot, about 10' to the right and maybe 5' behind me.
Kristian

I just noticed your sig line. I tell that to people all the time and they look at me like I have 10 heads. Lol
 
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I went out to fiddle with my press a bit tonight. The rounds I had loaded up were slightly too long for my mags last night, so I shortened them up a bit to work in all my mags instead of just the one. I checked my powder measure before trying to load some semi wadcutters, and found that it was dispensing 13.5 grains, not 13 like I originally set it for. The powder must have settled a bit in the hopper, so the ones I fired last night may have been max loads instead of starting ones. Oops. I did put some cast ones together after adjusting the powder measure, but I may need to find a different style of semi wadcutter, these ones have to be seated pretty deep to fit in the mag. I didn't load many, just in case they don't work out.
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Hopefully they feed OK seated this far in, the wadcutter shoulder is flush with the case mouth. Maybe I should have made a dummy round first.
Kristian
 
I made it to the range today with my chronograph. Unfortunately I only got to check 8 shots before the chronograph died, apparently it doesn't like the cold. The load I got to check was a 230gn fmj with 11.0gn Long shot and loaded to 1.250" oal. I used CCI large pistol primers, and I think the primers will be the limitation with this round. This was right in the middle of the load range, and clocked at about 1310fps (1290-1339, 1311 avg, 14 SD). I had some loaded with 11.7gn (max is listed as 12.0) and found a few pierced primers plus some that had the dent from the firing pin pushed back out. The cases have a slight bulge where the feed ramp is too. I took some videos and am just waiting for them to upload to YouTube. It wasn't a very good day to be shooting for groups, as it was -19 with a -28 wind chill today. I did put about 50 rounds on a target at 25m, but I had already been out there for almost two hours, so its not exactly impressive. I was shooting at some 8"dia steel plates earlier, and hitting them about 6 or 7 times per mag, and about the same with the other 1911 that I brought along in 45 acp. After shooting the two of them back to back, I can say the 460 definitely has more recoil than the 45acp, but nothing unmanageable. I put about 200 rounds through it today without a beaver tail and my hands were fine other than the cold. I wasn't wearing any gloves while shooting. I would rather shoot the 460 with heavy loads than my 6" S&W 66-1 with heavy loads. Here's a picture of my lousy shooting today. The squares are 1".
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Here's a picture of some of the brass. Top is a pierced primer, next two are also pretty over pressure, bottom aren't too terrible. Most were better than this. It doesn't really show up in the pictures, but you can see the cutout where the extractor is on each one is slightly raised.
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The lead swc bullets I loaded didn't feed very well, so I'll have to try to find some different ones for future.
Kristian
 
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Beware of bulged brass. If you get a blow-out, that's the spot that will go.
The gases then head down the magazine well. In my view. it's a good idea to have metal in the grip plates for protection.
I would take that as a warning, and back it off a smidgen.:)
 
I'll definitely be backing off a bit on the loading. This is a perfect lesson to not jump straight to max loads, even when following published data. The ones that pierced primers and bulged the brass were loaded to 11.7gns, max is listed as 12. I might have to look into getting some 308 brass cut to the Rowland length and try some rifle primers for hotter loads if I ever get an ATC.
There's definitely a bit more snap than the 45 acp, but to be fair, it's loaded a bit light for IPSC, plus it has a high rise beavertail, undercut trigger guard, and grip tape on the front strap, so its a bit easier to hang onto and get back on target. The Rowland loads in the video are the ones that were the hottest ones I loaded too.
Kristian
 
MiniMe said:
Ok
Time to ask for a NR carbine in this caliber with pistol mags!
Maybe a JR or Thureon....
:dancingbanana:
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Honestly, if a Jr could handle the pressure, you could do just get the chamber cut longer or use the 45-08 brass. There is also mention of a carbine on 460rowland.com, but I don't know what the barrel length is.
Kristian
 
I took my gun apart tonight to clean it and have a look at the internals after about 225 rounds through it. Everything looked pretty good except the back of the guide rod. The little ears on top of the flat spot that the spring sits against are getting peened and bent back from the gun cycling already. I'm going to order some shock buffers next time I'm putting together a Brownells order. Of course, once the flat part is conformed to the frame, there probably won't be any further damage. That was after 100 rounds that were quite a bit too hot, judging from the primers that were either pierced or had the firing pin indentation pushed back out. I won't be repeating those loads anytime soon.
Kristian
 
Can-down said:
Source http://www.realguns.com/archives/106.htm


---------------------------- Std ACP----- +P----- Super----- Rowland
Primer Pocket Depth------ 0.116----- 0.121----- 0.124----- 0.124
Web Thickness------------ 0.067----- 0.059----- 0.074----- 0.054
Case Head to Web--------- 0.185----- 0.185----- 0.195----- 0.178
Overall Case Length------ 0.886----- 0.894----- 0.896----- 0.956


Std ACP ----- +P ----- Super ----- Rowland

csecmpral45.jpg
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I sliced some cases open after work today, and took some measurments. A Starline 460 Rowland on the left and a Norc 45 ACP on the right. I cut a Blazer brass case to just in case the Norc is out of spec. The head of the Rowland case is .180" thick, the Norc head is .150", and the Blazer is .160" The thickness just above the web at the end of the curve is .038" for the Rowland, .042" for the Norc, and .033" for the Blazer. The end of the curve in the web is about .220" from the head of the case for the Rowland, .190" for the Norc, and .190" for the Blazer. Putting the calipers down to the edge of the extractor cut and measuring thickness, I get .070" for the Rowland (won't go quite to the extractor cut), .062" for the Norc, and
.057" for the Blazer. So it looks like the Rowland brass is a little tougher than regular 45 ACP.
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Kristian
 
The case head is .030" thicker than the 45 ACP case, so the thinner walls of the case don't start until further into the chamber. I couldn't get the calipers to the extractor cut on the Rowland cases because of the thicker case head, but it is a bit thicker in the radius as well. There's more to the 460 Rowland than just a longer ACP case and some hype.
Kristian
 
I think I'm going to have to do a bit of gunsmithing on my Nor to make the new barrel fit properly. The locking lugs on it are a bit beat up, and the hood of the barrel is dragging inside the slide. I think the frame needs to be relieved a bit where the barrel comes down to the unlocked position. I've been doing some reading, and the bottom of the barrel is not supposed to touch the frame, but it does now. I'm going to try to make the tools needed for a barrel timing test. Here is a good writeup of the test and the tools needed, just have to fix the link because it's on another forum.
ht tp://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=262344

Here's a picture of the top of my barrel after about 225 rounds through the gun.
IMG_20150215_133105.jpg


I'm also doing a few more things to it, but I'll start another thread for that so this one stays on topic.
Kristian
 
turbo_bird said:
I think I'm going to have to do a bit of gunsmithing on my Nor to make the new barrel fit properly. The locking lugs on it are a bit beat up, and the hood of the barrel is dragging inside the slide. I think the frame needs to be relieved a bit where the barrel comes down to the unlocked position. I've been doing some reading, and the bottom of the barrel is not supposed to touch the frame, but it does now. I'm going to try to make the tools needed for a barrel timing test. Here is a good writeup of the test and the tools needed, just have to fix the link because it's on another forum.
ht tp://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=262344

Here's a picture of the top of my barrel after about 225 rounds through the gun.
IMG_20150215_133105.jpg


I'm also doing a few more things to it, but I'll start another thread for that so this one stays on topic.
Kristian
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Take it to a real gunsmith that is familiar with 1911's....its not fitting properly, the lugs are peening, keep shooting it like that and the barrel will be trashed.
 
Hitzy said:
Take it to a real gunsmith that is familiar with 1911's....its not fitting properly, the lugs are peening, keep shooting it like that and the barrel will be trashed.
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I agree, but I'll never learn gunsmithing if I always take stuff to others to get done. Besides that, the only gunsmith I know of where I live did an online course as his only training. From some of the stuff I've heard him suggest, I wouldn't let him mount a scope on a rifle. I've been working on it a bit and there wasn't enough clearance between the barrel and the slide (obviously). I had to take down the barrel bed surface in the frame a bit and remove a bit from the inside of the slide. Once I get it ready to try out, I will try a few rounds at a time and check for any more damage. The slight peening that was there cleaned up easily with a bit of fine emery cloth. The lugs look perfect again now.
Kristian
 
Send it to Roger at Dark International or Gunnar at Armco, there is more wrong there then you can diagnose, the lock up is off and there are several reasons that could be happening. Not worth losing fingers or hands over by playing amateur gunsmith...
 
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