1911 tests - enough to make TDC's head explode.

[TDC]

There are merits to single stack magazines & the pistols that run them:
1) Pistol designs that are slimmer than pistols running the same caliber in a staggered mag.
2) Profiles of larger caliber guns no larger than smaller caliber ones.
3) Single stack mags are generally more reliable than staggered - especially in adverse conditions.


You are indicating the single stack magazine design is obsolite which is patently false. The above is but a few examples of why the single stack magazine and guns that run them still exist. The Sig Sauer P220 is a prime example of updated pistol technology taking advantage of the single stack mag design.


There are many designs that still use the single stack for reliability when volume is a secondary consideration.



I agree about the hits counting - however this is a product of training and not the type or model of firearm used.

The majority of handgun fights are close in and over within 3.5 seconds according to some statistics, which largely discredits the capacity arguement.

Your facts are lacking. The Glock 21 comes in at 1.27 inches in width. The classic single stack 1911 from Kimber's website indicates 1.28 inches. 8 rounds vs 13, you do the math. The SIG P220 measures a full 1.5 inches in width for a whopping 8 rounds on tap. Sounds like a significant reduction in size for that single stack mag, good thing the P220 takes advantage of single stack mags. In fact, the P226 measures the same(1.5") and it offers you 15 rounds. The standard size frame for Glock measures in at 1.18" and offers 15-17 rounds depending on calibre. On that note, the myth of "stopping power" with greater calibers is just that, a myth. The 45ACP round is over-rated. However, should you fall into that myth the Glock still comes out on top. A Glock 31 offers you a width of 1.18 inches and 15 rounds of .357 SIG which by ballistic data is superior to the 45ACP round.

I'm not sure where you come up with the belief that single stack mags are more reliable than double stack. I see that most who run 1911's run someone's after market mags, Chip McCormick or Wilson being the two major players. Aside from Norinco problems the next most common 1911 concern I see, read, and hear about are magazine related issues. I have yet to hear anyone complain about a bad Glock mag, aside from their stiff springs when loading. In fact, two buddies of mine had SIG P226 pistols and they never had a magazine issue either. Hold on, another buddy has a P220 in 9mm with a single stack mag and the only issue I know of is the base plate coming off when the mag landed on a concrete floor. I don't see any trends in favor of the single stack over double stack.

TDC

 

[Westicle]

Could you please tell myself and the other lurkers of this thread just what your professional training consists of?

TDC

I would like to hear what your "professinal" training is, because unless your using your gun in a profession like a soldier or LEO then what your doing is the same as us, having fun and learning new things..... so you have taken a course or two, whoop dee do, your now a tactical god and can preach to your disciples..... oh wait, you have none.

until YOU are on the two way range you can blather all you like, all the training in the world does not amount to a hill of beans when the SHTF.

blah blah blah..... the only tactics you know are the ones you are taught to parrot from your instructor, really, you could replace the SHAMWOW guy your so sold on the product of "tactics".

[aussie voice] LOOK EVERYBODY, THE NEW TACTICAL SHAMWOW MY INSTRUCTORS ASSURE ME IT WILL SOAK UP A GALLON OF BLOOD AND THEN WRING RIGHT OUT, STEP UP AND GETS YOURS NOW.... I AM A TACTICAL GOD[/aussie voice]

 

[MET]

Pretty sure TDC is a mall cop!

I would like to hear what your "professinal" training is, because unless your using your gun in a profession like a soldier or LEO then what your doing is the same as us, having fun and learning new things..... so you have taken a course or two, whoop dee do, your now a tactical god and can preach to your disciples..... oh wait, you have none.

until YOU are on the two way range you can blather all you like, all the training in the world does not amount to a hill of beans when the SHTF.

blah blah blah..... the only tactics you know are the ones you are taught to parrot from your instructor, really, you could replace the SHAMWOW guy your so sold on the product of "tactics".

[aussie voice] LOOK EVERYBODY, THE NEW TACTICAL SHAMWOW MY INSTRUCTORS ASSURE ME IT WILL SOAK UP A GALLON OF BLOOD AND THEN WRING RIGHT OUT, STEP UP AND GETS YOURS NOW.... I AM A TACTICAL GOD[/aussie voice]

 

[Starscream]

....wow, now I'm scared of getting either a glock or a 1911...

........ anyone got a sig or beretta for sale?

 

[yyyyy]

I would like to hear what your "professinal" training is, because unless your using your gun in a profession like a soldier or LEO then what your doing is the same as us, having fun and learning new things..... so you have taken a course or two, whoop dee do, your now a tactical god and can preach to your disciples..... oh wait, you have none.

until YOU are on the two way range you can blather all you like, all the training in the world does not amount to a hill of beans when the SHTF.

blah blah blah..... the only tactics you know are the ones you are taught to parrot from your instructor, really, you could replace the SHAMWOW guy your so sold on the product of "tactics".

[aussie voice] LOOK EVERYBODY, THE NEW TACTICAL SHAMWOW MY INSTRUCTORS ASSURE ME IT WILL SOAK UP A GALLON OF BLOOD AND THEN WRING RIGHT OUT, STEP UP AND GETS YOURS NOW.... I AM A TACTICAL GOD[/aussie voice]

"all the training in the world does not amount to a hill of beans when the SHTF"

What? THat is the most illogical statement made on this thread.

You can knock TDC all you want for preaching what he believes. But your comment about all the training in the world amounts to nothing is ridiculous.

Is that how you are going to beat everyone when the SHTF? With your logic? Since all the people with training will count for nothing?

And why are you judging the training by the occupation rather than the trainer?

By westicles arguement: what about a soldier who has training but works in accounting? Are they a professional soldier? What about somoene with 10 years in the reserves, lots of classes and training, but has never been to war? "Clearly all the training in the world does not amount to a hill of beans when the SHTF." What about the civilian accountant who has trained with a SF instructor, Tomassie, or Cooper himself? Are you saying they don't have professional training, or that their training wont make them better unless they wear camouflage? Real tree or Multicam?

TDC stated for example somewhere that he trained with the SIG academy? Have you trained there? That is some seriously reputable and highly professional training. I wouldn't say that is just "having fun and learning new things".

"the only tactics you know are the ones you are taught to parrot from your instructor"... Ok, you are saying he is a poser based on YOUR PROFESSIONAL TRAINING? is that it?

IMHO the internet ninja who has taken some courses is better than the one that has taken none if we are discussing tactics, skills, or discussion at all I guess. They have something to add relevant to the discussion. Sure you can have your own opinion, but back it up with somthing other than calling him a shamwow salesman...

You know? Like backing it up with your professional training maybe? Unless of course people are settling it in the parking lot or out on the range. Then you can say who's technique is better at that date and time. If you can agree one rules.

Funny, I wonder if these are the types of debates where people questioned tactics, doctrine, or dogma, maybe said "when am I ever going to get into a defensive shoot" or "what do you know, kid, as I have been doing this for 15 years" that caused people to start other shooting sports that were/are apparently are supposed to be revisiting tactics and defensive shooting....


Shooting the game for fun, tactical training, or exercise, who cares? Whatever you do if you are a good sport and safe, I am happy to have you around.

So, I think TDC has a point. I think the foundation of both of the major shooting sports was supposed to be defensive or practical pistol skills. Perhaps the same "I know it all" attitude from the experienced shooters supposedly practising tactics and practical shooting is what caused Vickers and Wilson etc to start another shooting sport... I am thinking about the difficulty people must have had, or are having at academies getting instructors to stop teaching weaver and start shooting isosceles, etc.

Perhaps the issue, tactics, or firearm can be addressed or discussed without taking the post personally.

 

[TDC]

I would like to hear what your "professinal" training is, because unless your using your gun in a profession like a soldier or LEO then what your doing is the same as us, having fun and learning new things..... so you have taken a course or two, whoop dee do, your now a tactical god and can preach to your disciples..... oh wait, you have none.

until YOU are on the two way range you can blather all you like, all the training in the world does not amount to a hill of beans when the SHTF.

blah blah blah..... the only tactics you know are the ones you are taught to parrot from your instructor, really, you could replace the SHAMWOW guy your so sold on the product of "tactics".

[aussie voice] LOOK EVERYBODY, THE NEW TACTICAL SHAMWOW MY INSTRUCTORS ASSURE ME IT WILL SOAK UP A GALLON OF BLOOD AND THEN WRING RIGHT OUT, STEP UP AND GETS YOURS NOW.... I AM A TACTICAL GOD[/aussie voice]

Professional training, is the training I received from an individual or group whom is paid to teach said material. Your comprehension skills need some work, as well as your grammer.

AS yyyyy pointed out, are you implying that any training that isn't used or directed towards a profession requiring the use of a firearm is "useless"?

Nowhere have I indicated I was some sort of "tactical god". What I've learned and what I practice are proven techniques that work. As is evident in this thread and many others, no one seems to have any evidence to the contrary. Which leaves two possibilities regardless of whether or not my information is "correct". Either what I've posted regarding certain tactics is either correct, or the audience haven't a clue what I'm talking about and lack the necessary training/knowledge to dispute it.

The action of teaching or instructing is exactly as you described, parroting. The act of learning is to copy that which is presented to you. So yes, I practice what I preach and practice what I've been taught.

You are also correct, I train because it is both fun and educational. I train because the skills taught are useful for both gaming and personal defense. Something I cannot say for IPSC, IDPA or any other "shooting sport".

I'l ask you the same question I asked Bob. Could you please state your credentials and/or dispute my information if you're so confident that what I post is incorrect or at the very least not the most efficient or effective method of action? It seems your tactic is to play the same old song "I'm old and fat and therefore I cannot.."

TDC

 

[t-star]

you know you've "arrived" when the instructor says " i didn't KNOW it could do THAT" followed by"show me, please"- that's when you know you've eclipsed your training- and his as well

 

[Canuck44]

Until you have bees wizzing over your head ( and I don't mean laying on a floor at a range and having your pals play shoot the target) or are staring at the wrong end of gun aimed at you in anger you don't know what you will do. Hopefully you will fall back on what you have learned but you don't know how you will react then or after. That is all Wes said.

Easy to claim your expertise and spout the mantra when the chance of you being faced with such a situation in this country are remote in the extreme. Taking a week-end course is not the same as four years of infantry training and a six month stint in Afghanistan or working East Hastings or 118th AVe at two in the morning. I suspect your desire for "action" would be tempered somewhat by either of the experiences.

When you have been there come back and tell us all about it. Until then it is just keyboard chatter.

You might be better off spending more time improving your professional skills at what ever you do when you aren't at home dreaming of the opportunity..... Certainly the pay back will be more rewarding.

TDC you might try comprehending the distinction of the reality of entering a contest where their can be but one winner and still enjoying the outcome if you fall short with not wanting to compete. If you base your percepton of success in life solely on placing first all of the time you will die a very unhappy individual and a very sorry loser.

Take Care

Bob

 

[beltfed]

Your facts are lacking. The Glock 21 comes in at 1.27 inches in width. The classic single stack 1911 from Kimber's website indicates 1.28 inches. ... The SIG P220 measures a full 1.5 inches in width for a whopping 8 rounds on tap.

Lucky me I have Starrett calipers and all three pistols on hand to measure, so you can be assured my numbers are fact

Sig 220
Width of Slide: 0.85" at top, 1.1" at frame widening
Butt Width: 0.80" frame

Colt 1911
Slide Width: 0.92"
Butt Width (and entire frame): .775"

Glock 21 SF
Slide Width: 1.125"
Butt Width: 1.30"

You should note that the butt measurements account for the frame width. This is an important consideration with regard to the P220 and 1911, as there exists the ability to change grips that are considerably slimmer than OEM grips.
By its very nature, the single stack mag is slimmer than a comperable staggered row mag, and allow for slimmer profile firearm designs to suit.
Of that, there is no debate.

8 rounds vs 13, you do the math.

We, or should I say 'I' covered the capacity issue in my last post. You should form a credible rebuttal or admit you're wrong and let it go.

On that note, the myth of "stopping power" with greater calibers is just that, a myth. The 45ACP round is over-rated.

Who mentioned 'stopping power'?
The 45 acp round is overrated according to whom? You? There are several agencies that use it and would likely disagree wth your opinion.

However, should you fall into that myth the Glock still comes out on top. A Glock 31 offers you a width of 1.18 inches and 15 rounds of .357 SIG which by ballistic data is superior to the 45ACP round.

So now you are turning your debate of 'Glock vs. 1911' platforms to '45acp vs. .357 sig' cartridge?
Ballistics is another topic and has nothing to do with the engineering of the two pistol designs.

I'm not sure where you come up with the belief that single stack mags are more reliable than double stack.

This is a fairly well known fact.
Admitedly the staggered row box magazine has made leaps and bounds over the years with regard to reliability, under adverse conditions the single stack design is simplier and easier to feed from.
There is far less mechanical leverage on each round as they cycle through the mag, and less tollerance in the magazine to hold dirt, sand and the like to impede round cycling and feeding.

I see that most who run 1911's run someone's after market mags, Chip McCormick or Wilson being the two major players.

I'm not sure of your point. If this is a testament to the quality of McCormick's and Wilson's mags, I would agree. There are certainly good and bad manufactured magazines.

Aside from Norinco problems the next most common 1911 concern I see, read, and hear about are magazine related issues..

The quality of magazines can make or break any firearms' reliability. The design of the 1911 magazine is sound, unfortunately some manufacturers use substandard material and quality control, and some users employ them well past their due -this is not the fault of the pistol or it's design.

I have yet to hear anyone complain about a bad Glock mag, aside from their stiff springs when loading.

Glock did well to include the magazines in their patent. They can control the supply and therefore the quality of the product.
I'm sure once Glock's patents run out we will see superior aftermarket mags manufactured along with the bad.

 

[Westicle]

once again TDC skips over listing his own professional training.... hoo hum.

and bob is correct, my statement is meant that traing does not mean s**t when the SHTF as in you can train all you want but when the situation accelerates you never know what your going to do until it is time to do it. Training i only 1/3 of the equation... mindset, courage and the balls to get things done that need to be done are equally important.

thats kinda forrestt gump'ish

"momma always said, you never know what your going to do till you do it" HI , i'm forresstt , forrestt gump.

anyway... I don't pretend to be a tactical god, I believe in common sense and knowing your weapons systems.... he who shoots first and most accuratly will always win the day..... face it in caanda in a slf defense situation it is goign to be you against a mugger who allready has his gun in hand (or knife) your going to have to fight thru either getting stabbed or shot and nuetralizing the threat and THEN providing first aid to yourself.

but then I have not been trained like TDC, whatever training he will not fess up to taking.

 

[yyyyy]

Right... Mindset, but since that cannot be empirically compared, and is subjective until tested, you can compare training. TDC has stated his training in other threads. You just throw insults. And as I said before, on the internet the guy who says "its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog usually is compensating for his lack of training, fitness, or skills.

So, if we assume that all of us internet ninjas will be equal in mindset, then who has the training that will give a further advantage...?

"I don't pretend to be a tactical god," - Then be careful how you comment about others and their training/skills then. You are calling TDC out for not listing his training, while listing none of your own. Claiming you have none doesn't get you of the hook. It makes me question how you are able to judge him then, or comment on his discussion of tactics in an educated or experienced way.

That said... TDC's disqualification of IDPA and IPSC are short sighted. Stating "I train because the skills taught are useful for both gaming and personal defense. Something I cannot say for IPSC, IDPA or any other "shooting sport" without qualifying the faults of the sports is wrong. Any intense practice with the firearm under with some tutelage with skilled shooters is going to increase your combat and gaming skills.

But this brings me back to my point about IDPA and IPSC were supposed to be about tactics. The IDPA founders argued that IPSC had simply become a gun race, and broke off to found their own sport based on training with CCW weapons and supposed defensive situations IIRC? That is what I think is interesting about the discussion where people where basically saying I shoot IDPA, and you know nothing about it, or tactics have nothing to do with it because it is a sport... It is supposed to be a sport around CCW and defensive tactics, correct? Thus, TDC's comments about it I think were fair in that respect.

 

[Westicle]

The IDPA founders argued that IPSC had simply become a gun race, and broke off to found their own sport based on training with CCW weapons and supposed defensive situations IIRC? That is what I think is interesting about the discussion where people where basically saying I shoot IDPA, and you know nothing about it, or tactics have nothing to do with it because it is a sport... It is supposed to be a sport around CCW and defensive tactics, correct?

IDPA was never intended to be a training ground, you are correct in stating that the founders saw IPSC as a gun race and so they started IDPA for the "average" man as a sport he could compete in with the gun that he carried daily for personal defense.... it was meant to get "JOE AVERAGE" out to the range and use his gun in scenarios loosely based upon real defensive situations..... as confined to a range setting.

anything that gets joe average out the range to shoot his guns is a good thing....

My Qualifications ? I have been a handgun shooter for 19 years, used to be a PITA "A" class trap shooter and shot in the VISL league on vancouver island, I have "played" with most of the various makes and models of handguns available in canada and have owned over 212 handguns in that 19 year period according to my latest FOIP request (what is funny is I have owned 32 10/22's in the same time period)

I am an IDPA shooter and Safety Officer, I started the local IDPA club and volunteer my time and efforts to make sure things run smoothly there.... I stepped up and last year we had 29 pistol shooters who would regualrly attend our events. sure it does not seem like much but we are a small club, I am also a member on our board of directors for the club and recently influenced them to join the CSSA as an affiliate member.

I have been a WCB and EMP canada first aid instructor since 1998, I have worked as a medic for 18.5 years now most of that full time with various levels of certifications, I am certified as a Train the Trainer on a college level so I can teach adult education courses.... I am also the only industrial medic in canada to be awarded both the candian association of oil drilling contractors "award for bravery" and also the governor generals "Medal of Bravery".

there is most of my resume.... and I have NEVER seen TDC post anything about his training..... just heard thru the grapevine of a single course he has taken with friends.... no comment on what "they" thought of him.

does that make you happy ?

common sense rules the day...

 

[yyyyy]

I am not going to comment on how the EMP canada instructor stuff doesn't really apply to the discussion of tactics and shooting IMHO.

However, I am going to respectfully tip my hat to you for the Medal Of Bravery.

You can put the letters after your name, that is pretty cool.

Congratulations for the award, and thank you for your efforts to save a life!

[Salutes]

You going to the BC IDPA championships this year?

 

[Greenhorse six]

Lucky me I have Starrett calipers and all three pistols on hand to measure, so you can be assured my numbers are fact

Sig 220
Width of Slide: 0.85" at top, 1.1" at frame widening
Butt Width: 0.80" frame

Colt 1911
Slide Width: 0.92"
Butt Width (and entire frame): .775"

Glock 21 SF
Slide Width: 1.125"
Butt Width: 1.30"

You should note that the butt measurements account for the frame width. This is an important consideration with regard to the P220 and 1911, as there exists the ability to change grips that are considerably slimmer than OEM grips.
By its very nature, the single stack mag is slimmer than a comperable staggered row mag, and allow for slimmer profile firearm designs to suit.
Of that, there is no debate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC
8 rounds vs 13, you do the math.

We, or should I say 'I' covered the capacity issue in my last post. You should form a credible rebuttal or admit you're wrong and let it go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC
On that note, the myth of "stopping power" with greater calibers is just that, a myth. The 45ACP round is over-rated.

Who mentioned 'stopping power'?
The 45 acp round is overrated according to whom? You? There are several agencies that use it and would likely disagree wth your opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC
However, should you fall into that myth the Glock still comes out on top. A Glock 31 offers you a width of 1.18 inches and 15 rounds of .357 SIG which by ballistic data is superior to the 45ACP round.

So now you are turning your debate of 'Glock vs. 1911' platforms to '45acp vs. .357 sig' cartridge?
Ballistics is another topic and has nothing to do with the engineering of the two pistol designs.




Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC
I'm not sure where you come up with the belief that single stack mags are more reliable than double stack.

This is a fairly well known fact.
Admitedly the staggered row box magazine has made leaps and bounds over the years with regard to reliability, under adverse conditions the single stack design is simplier and easier to feed from.
There is far less mechanical leverage on each round as they cycle through the mag, and less tollerance in the magazine to hold dirt, sand and the like to impede round cycling and feeding.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC
I see that most who run 1911's run someone's after market mags, Chip McCormick or Wilson being the two major players.

I'm not sure of your point. If this is a testament to the quality of McCormick's and Wilson's mags, I would agree. There are certainly good and bad manufactured magazines.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC
Aside from Norinco problems the next most common 1911 concern I see, read, and hear about are magazine related issues..

The quality of magazines can make or break any firearms' reliability. The design of the 1911 magazine is sound, unfortunately some manufacturers use substandard material and quality control, and some users employ them well past their due -this is not the fault of the pistol or it's design.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC
I have yet to hear anyone complain about a bad Glock mag, aside from their stiff springs when loading.

Glock did well to include the magazines in their patent. They can control the supply and therefore the quality of the product.
I'm sure once Glock's patents run out we will see superior aftermarket mags manufactured along with the bad.

WOW!

That was well put,clear and easy to understand ,and without personal insult.

 

[yyyyy]

+1

"The 45 acp round is overrated according to whom? You? There are several agencies that use it and would likely disagree wth your "

I would think they all would argue for better training, shot placement, and better officer survival training with reliable weapons platform over calibre, as the FBI ballistics test that launched the .40 into the limelight has be frequently challenged, and the best tests, or most referenced ones only refer to gel, in which most modern handgun rounds perform to nearly the same level IIRC. As the sig says:

"The stopping power "problem" is based on the misconception that there exists a hand-held firearm which can instantly terminate hostile behaviour (reliably and repeatedly)."

 

[Greenhorse six]

+1

"The 45 acp round is overrated according to whom? You? There are several agencies that use it and would likely disagree wth your "

I would think they all would argue for better training, shot placement, and better officer survival training with reliable weapons platform over calibre, as the FBI ballistics test that launched the .40 into the limelight has be frequently challenged, and the best tests, or most referenced ones only refer to gel, in which most modern handgun rounds perform to nearly the same level IIRC. As the sig says:

"The stopping power "problem" is based on the misconception that there exists a hand-held firearm which can instantly terminate hostile behaviour (reliably and repeatedly)."

Be that as it may,bigger bullet= better chance of hitting something important, That's just the fact of the matter.It give you a better edge.

 

[Clobbersauras]

IDPA was never intended to be a training ground, you are correct in stating that the founders saw IPSC as a gun race and so they started IDPA for the "average" man as a sport he could compete in with the gun that he carried daily for personal defense.... it was meant to get "JOE AVERAGE" out to the range and use his gun in scenarios loosely based upon real defensive situations..... as confined to a range setting.

anything that gets joe average out the range to shoot his guns is a good thing....

My Qualifications ? I have been a handgun shooter for 19 years, used to be a PITA "A" class trap shooter and shot in the VISL league on vancouver island, I have "played" with most of the various makes and models of handguns available in canada and have owned over 212 handguns in that 19 year period according to my latest FOIP request (what is funny is I have owned 32 10/22's in the same time period)

I am an IDPA shooter and Safety Officer, I started the local IDPA club and volunteer my time and efforts to make sure things run smoothly there.... I stepped up and last year we had 29 pistol shooters who would regualrly attend our events. sure it does not seem like much but we are a small club, I am also a member on our board of directors for the club and recently influenced them to join the CSSA as an affiliate member.

I have been a WCB and EMP canada first aid instructor since 1998, I have worked as a medic for 18.5 years now most of that full time with various levels of certifications, I am certified as a Train the Trainer on a college level so I can teach adult education courses.... I am also the only industrial medic in canada to be awarded both the candian association of oil drilling contractors "award for bravery" and also the governor generals "Medal of Bravery".

there is most of my resume.... and I have NEVER seen TDC post anything about his training..... just heard thru the grapevine of a single course he has taken with friends.... no comment on what "they" thought of him.

does that make you happy ?

common sense rules the day...

You forgot to mention that you are a drop dead ###y individual...just thought I'd drop that in there in case you forgot to ad it to your list of credentials.

FWIW I believe 18+ years of medic training would be invaluable "training" for dealing with ultra stressful situations. You would learn how to deal with stress pretty quickly I would imagine. Wes, I'd like to hear how you have progressed in dealing with stress in the moment of an emergency...have you learned how to manage it or is it always the same?

 

[Westicle]

I am not going to comment on how the EMP canada instructor stuff doesn't really apply to the discussion of tactics and shooting IMHO.

You going to the BC IDPA championships this year?

actually it does apply, LIFE EXPERIENCE is what I was getting at.... I have seen pictures of TDC and he looks about 24 years old.... if that. Young People have an attitude that nothing will hurt them and that they are the gods of thier domain......

meanwhile the older people look on with disdain and snicker at the posers.... life experience counts for alot.....

and yes I will be attending theprovincials, same as I did last year.... our club even donated to the prize table, got to support our sport.

 

[yyyyy]

Life experience is valuable, I am not discounting that. But again, too subjective in a open discussion of tactics or combat theory IMHO. You could of course discuss aspects like morale, but as subjective, and unpredictable as it is. But if talking about "should all reloads take place behind cover" etc. it doesn't really apply.

PS. Don't always discount the 24 year old. Underestimation of an opponent is a error I would expect someone praising and waiving a degree from the "school of hard knocks"
NOT TO MAKE.

 

[yyyyy]

Be that as it may,bigger bullet= better chance of hitting something important, That's just the fact of the matter.It give you a better edge.

More difficult recoil to manage makes follow up shot harder/slower to make... More difficult and expensive to train with, and so on.

or as one respected instructor says " the best way to increase the stopping power of a round is to put more in the target".

Therefore I would take the G17 and 17 rounds over the 1911 with 8 any day. By your logic and a perfect shooter, I am going to make more holes in total area than you are.