1911 tests - enough to make TDC's head explode.

[Westicle]

Underestimation of an opponent is a error I would expect someone praising and waiving a degree from the "school of hard knocks" NOT TO MAKE.

exactly, and don't believe taking some courses will make you a tactical god....

I base my opinion of TDC on feedback from people who have taken a course(s) with him, most of whom have taken MORE courses then him..... caveat emptor

still I looked for any posting he has made outlining HIS training and experience and still have not found anything.

 

[Greenhorse six]

More difficult recoil to manage makes follow up shot harder/slower to make... More difficult and expensive to train with, and so on.

or as one respected instructor says " the best way to increase the stopping power of a round is to put more in the target".

Therefore I would take the G17 and 17 rounds over the 1911 with 8 any day. By your logic and a perfect shooter, I am going to make more holes in total area than you are.

The recoil of the .45ACP in a Gov't 1911 is far from difficult,my daughters and son don't find it difficult, you should try it some time,it's not that bad, you are right about the cost of shooting the .45 ,but you can get .22 subcal kits to help with that if you can't afford shooting lots of .45ACP.

You do know that you have to account for all those rounds you put out,right, the ones that don't hit the target have to go some where,hit something or somebody you don't want to ,more rounds don't always mean more hits on target.

Your choice of a glock17 is a good one for you,I'll stick with my 1911"s

 

[Westicle]

frankly I think caliber choice is a moot point point in modern firearms using modern JHP ammunition....

overall I would take any caliber in 9mm or bigger with a modern pistol that is known to be reliable using the ammunition I choose.

I like glocks.... competing in IDPA I have seen very few glocks ever have a problem, and the only one I saw having a problem was related to handloads., BUT I love my 1911's as well and would not kick a nice kimber out ofbed either

 

[Trigun]

More difficult recoil to manage makes follow up shot harder/slower to make... More difficult and expensive to train with, and so on.

or as one respected instructor says " the best way to increase the stopping power of a round is to put more in the target".

Therefore I would take the G17 and 17 rounds over the 1911 with 8 any day. By your logic and a perfect shooter, I am going to make more holes in total area than you are.

We are only allow ten rounds in Canada brother

Trigun

 

[yyyyy]

I dont live only in Canada, brother.

 

[Greenhorse six]

frankly I think caliber choice is a moot point point in modern firearms using modern JHP ammunition....

overall I would take any caliber in 9mm or bigger with a modern pistol that is known to be reliable using the ammunition I choose.

Agreed, as long as the hollow point expands like it should,then it's Bob's your uncle,

I've got to get me a Glock some day,Thinking G17 or 19,maybe in O.D. ,Hey yyyyy,what about a G18, that'd be sweet.

 

[TDC]

Until you have bees wizzing over your head ( and I don't mean laying on a floor at a range and having your pals play shoot the target) or are staring at the wrong end of gun aimed at you in anger you don't know what you will do. Hopefully you will fall back on what you have learned but you don't know how you will react then or after. That is all Wes said.

Easy to claim your expertise and spout the mantra when the chance of you being faced with such a situation in this country are remote in the extreme. Taking a week-end course is not the same as four years of infantry training and a six month stint in Afghanistan or working East Hastings or 118th AVe at two in the morning. I suspect your desire for "action" would be tempered somewhat by either of the experiences.

When you have been there come back and tell us all about it. Until then it is just keyboard chatter.

You might be better off spending more time improving your professional skills at what ever you do when you aren't at home dreaming of the opportunity..... Certainly the pay back will be more rewarding.

TDC you might try comprehending the distinction of the reality of entering a contest where their can be but one winner and still enjoying the outcome if you fall short with not wanting to compete. If you base your percepton of success in life solely on placing first all of the time you will die a very unhappy individual and a very sorry loser.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,
Your comments are quite truthful. Until an individual is placed in the situation, the best one can hope for is solid training and a clear mind. That being said, immersing oneself in realistic training rather than gaming is a leap ahead.

As for winning, you can't and won't win everything in life, its a fact. Moving through life without some desire to win is not progress and you will never succeed. Participating in any activity without either the desire to win or the desire to improve oneself on some level is a waste of time and energy.

TDC

 

[TDC]

Lucky me I have Starrett calipers and all three pistols on hand to measure, so you can be assured my numbers are fact

Sig 220
Width of Slide: 0.85" at top, 1.1" at frame widening
Butt Width: 0.80" frame

Colt 1911
Slide Width: 0.92"
Butt Width (and entire frame): .775"

Glock 21 SF
Slide Width: 1.125"
Butt Width: 1.30"

You should note that the butt measurements account for the frame width. This is an important consideration with regard to the P220 and 1911, as there exists the ability to change grips that are considerably slimmer than OEM grips.
By its very nature, the single stack mag is slimmer than a comperable staggered row mag, and allow for slimmer profile firearm designs to suit.
Of that, there is no debate.

We, or should I say 'I' covered the capacity issue in my last post. You should form a credible rebuttal or admit you're wrong and let it go.

Who mentioned 'stopping power'?
The 45 acp round is overrated according to whom? You? There are several agencies that use it and would likely disagree wth your opinion.

So now you are turning your debate of 'Glock vs. 1911' platforms to '45acp vs. .357 sig' cartridge?
Ballistics is another topic and has nothing to do with the engineering of the two pistol designs.

This is a fairly well known fact.
Admitedly the staggered row box magazine has made leaps and bounds over the years with regard to reliability, under adverse conditions the single stack design is simplier and easier to feed from.
There is far less mechanical leverage on each round as they cycle through the mag, and less tollerance in the magazine to hold dirt, sand and the like to impede round cycling and feeding.

I'm not sure of your point. If this is a testament to the quality of McCormick's and Wilson's mags, I would agree. There are certainly good and bad manufactured magazines.

The quality of magazines can make or break any firearms' reliability. The design of the 1911 magazine is sound, unfortunately some manufacturers use substandard material and quality control, and some users employ them well past their due -this is not the fault of the pistol or it's design.

Glock did well to include the magazines in their patent. They can control the supply and therefore the quality of the product.
I'm sure once Glock's patents run out we will see superior aftermarket mags manufactured along with the bad.

For starters, my numbers came from the respective manufacturers websites. Second, after market grips indicates you are customizing the pistol, not exactly a stock gun anymore, so we're right back to the "if you send it to the smith or change X and Y" your pistol will function or be suitable for X role.

Slide width isn't an issue, grip size is what causes printing problems when carrying.

I re read your last post and still don't see where you covered magazine capacity? I'm not sure anyone in their right mind would choose the lower capacity firearm over its alternative where respective size and dimensions are similar.

Your attribute to single stack magazines "Profiles of larger caliber guns no larger than smaller caliber ones" clearly indicates your belief that a larger calibre is "superior" from a performance perspective. YYYYY already addressed that ignorant belief with his signature line. Shot placement makes the difference, not calibre. If calibre was the determining factor there wouldn't be any dead officers or civilians from anything but 45ACP handguns.

Ballistics has nothing to do with the design of the pistols in question(aside from their ability to tolerate the pressures and stresses associated) you're right. Ballistics does play a role when you jump on the "stopping power" bandwagon. Again, if you believe the published ballistic performance of any given cartridge, common sense and the numbers would indicate that .357SIG is a superior cartidge and is offered in smaller pistols with greater capacities.

As for single vs double stack. All I see in the 1911 arena are after market mags, usually of the two brands mentioned. Their mags work hence their popularity. I have yet to hear of any reputable brand/model of pistol running double stack mags that are not reliable. I don't think there's any real definitive evidence to support one over the other as far as reliability goes. As you mentioned, some manufacturers run sub standard materials or QC. This is something I don't see in factory Glock mags. I don't see how you could improve on the current magazine offered by Glock, it works, it works well and lasts. They do wear out and should be discarded just like any other magazine.

TDC

 

[cyclone]

Hey yyyyy,what about a G18, that'd be sweet.

18, or 18C.......

 

[TDC]

once again TDC skips over listing his own professional training.... hoo hum.

and bob is correct, my statement is meant that traing does not mean s**t when the SHTF as in you can train all you want but when the situation accelerates you never know what your going to do until it is time to do it. Training i only 1/3 of the equation... mindset, courage and the balls to get things done that need to be done are equally important.

thats kinda forrestt gump'ish

"momma always said, you never know what your going to do till you do it" HI , i'm forresstt , forrestt gump.

anyway... I don't pretend to be a tactical god, I believe in common sense and knowing your weapons systems.... he who shoots first and most accuratly will always win the day..... face it in caanda in a slf defense situation it is goign to be you against a mugger who allready has his gun in hand (or knife) your going to have to fight thru either getting stabbed or shot and nuetralizing the threat and THEN providing first aid to yourself.

but then I have not been trained like TDC, whatever training he will not fess up to taking.

Check my posts in another thread, I clearly indicate some of the training in which I have participated. Please, do tell me about all your superior training?

You start your post with "training does not mean s**t" then proclaim in a previous post "until YOU are on the two way range you can blather all you like, all the training in the world does not amount to a hill of beans when the SHTF". So are we to believe that LEO's, MIL and citizens who train prior to seeing real action are wasting their time because until they see action they won't and don't know how to react? So an attempt to train an automated response is ineffective? Like martial arts right?

Then you go on about training comprising of 1/3 of whats involved or important. So which is it, is training worth sh*t or isn't it? Your also mention mindset and "the courage and balls to get things done..." Mindset is something that can be discussed, and learned. But we already know that training/learning is a waste of time. Please tell me how one would learn or where one would find "the courage and balls to get things done.."?

"I don't pretend to be a tactical god" That's good, because your tactics and understanding of them is lacking.

"I believe in common sense and knowing your weapons systems" Common sense would tell you that gaming isn't training and therefore not applicable on the street. Common sense would tell you that training works, its called education, learning, growing, progression, evolution. Knowing your weapons systems is also referred to as learning, or training. You already admitted that "training does not mean sh*t". So again, which is it?

You end your ignorant post by attempting to setup your own mugging situation as if there are rules involved when a crime is committed. You set up your own situation for you to lose. Is this because you're accustomed to losing or because it fits your scenario's agenda?

As for my training, I have listed some of my training but I'll put it out there again. I've received training through SIG Arms Academy as well as Tactical Response. What training have you done? In fact, I believe it was you Westicle who was inquiring last summer about "sitting in" on a TR course to "see if it was worth the money". For a self proclaimed gamer why are you so interested in a school that teaches real world defensive tactics with an emphasis on mindset training?(from the TR thread last summer)

"next course I will come and shoot with you guys, not really into the "tactical" shooting style, I am just in the midst of starting IDPA here and find that more to my liking and speed. Nothing wrong with tacticool, I just would rather keep it at equipment I could wear concealed and scenarios which are loosely based on "somewhat" real life."

TDC

 

[TDC]

The recoil of the .45ACP in a Gov't 1911 is far from difficult,my daughters and son don't find it difficult, you should try it some time,it's not that bad, you are right about the cost of shooting the .45 ,but you can get .22 subcal kits to help with that if you can't afford shooting lots of .45ACP.

You do know that you have to account for all those rounds you put out,right, the ones that don't hit the target have to go some where,hit something or somebody you don't want to ,more rounds don't always mean more hits on target.

Your choice of a glock17 is a good one for you,I'll stick with my 1911"s

Is it an unwritten code that those who run a high capacity firearm must miss more shots than those who do not?? More rounds doesn't always mean more misses. More rounds is a no brainer. Your previous comment regarding bigger rounds increasing the potential of hitting a more vital target is plain retarded. 9mm vs .45/11.25 mm Yeah, I see there's a huge difference between the two. In fact, I'd gladly give up a two to one round count for such a substantial advantage. The recoil produced in a 45ACP handgun isn't difficult to handle, it is difficult when compared to shooting 9mm or even .40cal. Increased recoil isn't conducive to rapid, accurate shooting. Hence the popularity of compensators in IPSC.

The reliance on ammunition design is yet another poor choice. HP ammo isn't 100% reliable and neither is the proverbial "one shot stop". Shot placement provides the most consistent and effective solution to neutralizing a threat. YYYYY's signature line says it all..

TDC

 

[Steve David]

TDC, you speak very well, I assume you have quite the tactical back ground?

 

[Westicle]

TDC, you speak very well, I assume you have quite the tactical back ground?

tactics is his second job, right behind flipping burgers at mcdonalds....

so you have attended two courses... good for you, your my hero. I wish I was half the man you pretend to be on the internet.

your the next Jim Cirillo.

 

[Canuck44]

TDC wrote: "Hence the popularity of compensators in IPSC"

Yup, you sure see a lot of them in Production & Standard Division. Don't know how we would do without them.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Canuck44]

As for my training, I have listed some of my training but I'll put it out there again. I've received training through SIG Arms Academy as well as Tactical Response. .....For a self proclaimed gamer why are you so interested in a school that teaches real world defensive tactics with an emphasis on mindset training?(from the TR thread last summer)
TDC

That amounts to seven days if my Math is correct. That qualifies you in my books....as a keyboard commando Level 11, 1st Class. Any former JTF - 2 or Special Forces folks on the board are free to elevate or demote as you wish. I will defer to your opinion.

Real world tactics???? In your real world, Calgary, you get up in the morning, shower, shave, and off on the bus to MacDonalds or wherever.

Tactics involve opening the door for ladies and allowing them to get on the bus first. Once home you can strap on your pistol, turn on Defensive TV and play drills. Pretty much sums it up doesn't it for the real world.

Take Care

Bob

 

[beltfed]

For starters, my numbers came from the respective manufacturers websites.

Correct, and I told you I put calipers to actual pistols. My numbers are right, you are wrong.

Second, after market grips indicates you are customizing the pistol, not exactly a stock gun anymore, so we're right back to the "if you send it to the smith or change X and Y" your pistol will function or be suitable for X role.

That's interesting. You started the whole 'Glocks are superior to the 1911 design' - and yet one of the features of the pistol is the ability to build them up for different roles. Are you claiming that only stock guns (and grips? - come off it) should be compared? You are changing the very basis for your argement, quoting how adaptible the Glock is (in different calibers) but dismiss the modification of the 1911 platform? What about this statement?...

...Somehow I don't think there are rules on the street during a defensive shoot....

If thinner grips gave a shooter greater ability to conceal the firearm - why wouldn't they take it?

Slide width isn't an issue, grip size is what causes printing problems when carrying.

This statement is false. The entire size, including width contributes to the concealability of the firearm.

I re read your last post and still don't see where you covered magazine capacity?

"The majority of handgun fights are close in and over within 3.5 seconds according to some statistics, which largely discredits the capacity arguement."

I'm not sure anyone in their right mind would choose the lower capacity firearm over its alternative where respective size and dimensions are similar.

...this statement is repeating the assumption that the dimensions are a wash - which they clear aren't.

Your attribute to single stack magazines "Profiles of larger caliber guns no larger than smaller caliber ones" clearly indicates your belief that a larger calibre is "superior" from a performance perspective.

Whether I believe in it or not doesn't matter. There is clear evidence out there to support the theory that comparing similar shot placements, the .45acp is favourable to alot of calibers out there. Does it guarantee anything? No, nothing will.

YYYYY already addressed that ignorant belief with his signature line. Shot placement makes the difference, not calibre. If calibre was the determining factor there wouldn't be any dead officers or civilians from anything but 45ACP handguns.

"+1
"The 45 acp round is overrated according to whom? You? There are several agencies that use it and would likely disagree wth your "

I would think they all would argue for better training, shot placement, and better officer survival training with reliable weapons platform over calibre, as the FBI ballistics test that launched the .40 into the limelight has be frequently challenged, and the best tests, or most referenced ones only refer to gel, in which most modern handgun rounds perform to nearly the same level IIRC. As the sig says:

"The stopping power "problem" is based on the misconception that there exists a hand-held firearm which can instantly terminate hostile behaviour (reliably and repeatedly)." "





I would agree that shot placement is key. However most would agree that in the FBI testing, the prefered 10mm round was deemed to be too much for alot of shooters to handle -hense the downloaded 40 S&W. Can this be overcome with training? Likely, yes, however practicality and costs are concerns. The one feature of the .45acp cartridge that keeps it around is it provides excellent performance while remaining manageble for a great many shooters.

Ballistics has nothing to do with the design of the pistols in question(aside from their ability to tolerate the pressures and stresses associated) you're right. Ballistics does play a role when you jump on the "stopping power" bandwagon. Again, if you believe the published ballistic performance of any given cartridge, common sense and the numbers would indicate that .357SIG is a superior cartidge and is offered in smaller pistols with greater capacities.

.357 Sig, like the 10mm Auto round, is much more difficult to control accurate, fast shot placement compared to the .45acp. There are a great many shooters out there that would be poorly matched with that cartridge.

I don't think there's any real definitive evidence to support one over the other as far as reliability goes.

Definitive? No, but it is out there. Do some digging.

 

[Westicle]

 

[Canuck44]

Wes that is the post of the decade!

Guess who is in the middle. Tactical God KC Level 11, 1st Class

Take Care

Bob

 

[yyyyy]

I'll delete this if incorrect, but:

Did you just publicly post a picture of someone, because they disagree with you, on the forum?

 

[Airborn_69]

Wes: You're insane & awesome at the same time