200 yard challenge

In other words, without the chrony data to determine the MV of any group of ammo, we simply cannot know for certain what it is other than to estimate what the overall ES would have to be in order to describe the results achieved down range.

In any case, if I knew of SK Rifle Match with an ES of 35 fps in that regard I would consider it to be very good indeed. Would you agree that if correct the recorded sizes on the eight groups shown above indicate that the groups were very good for SK RM ammo?

To estimate overall ES, one must look at the round that impacted the highest from the center of the bull (whichever group that might be on), and what round impacted lowest from the center of the bull (whichever group that might be on). Add together the distances to center of the bull, to arrive at the maximum vertical spread for all shots fired, and from there the ES may be calculated with a ballistic app, roughly, as we do not know the exact velocity range of the ammo (and being off by only 30 fps for the average MV can change calculated vertical spread by up to an inch). I'm eyeballing 5-5.5" of total vertical spread, or 2.62 MOA. If the velocity range was 1030 to 1080, 50 fps ES, calculated MOA spread is 2.7, good enough for me. The ES of the Rifle Match ammo he shot was approximately 50, + or - a few fps.

Now, it is rare to witness the full ES of a large sample on a single 5 or 10 shot group. I'm not advanced enough in mathematics to try to compose a formula for how much smaller the typical ES would be, but the observed ES on the majority of 5 or 10 shot groups is indeed significantly less than the total ES for the entire sample. Say the ES on the typical group he shot was 35. Going back over my data, I would say No, this is not a good lot of SK RM ammo. I am seeing SK ammo hold sub 25 fps for 10 shots (of course, not all groups, but please see attached chart. My worst 10-shot ES for RM ammo was 35, with the others being 25, 26, 23, and 24. Likewise, Standard + only had one group go over 35 fps.




What does all this mean? Knowing the ES of his ammo gives the shooter only a partial understanding of how the ammo will perform. He can know what the velocity spread might look like over the course of using a large sample size of his ammo. Knowing the SD of his ammo will give the shooter a fuller understanding of how he can reliably expect his ammo to perform. In short, the ES doesn't tell an ammo's complete story, doesn't paint a complete picture of its nature. The SD of an ammo adds much-needed colour.

This is not to suggest that shooters need to chronograph their ammo to know how it will perform. A shooter can simply shoot and see what happens without ever using a chrony. This is what most shooters do, this one included (I have a chronograph but haven't used it in years). If his results are good, he has good ammo. Further, if the results are good, his rifle and shooting are good. But what explains inconsistent results (overlooking for the time the conditions)? Here the shooter is on less sure footing. Is it the ammo, the rifle, the shooter, or a combination of the three (again, disregarding conditions)? Chronographing can help explain the results obtained down range. It doesn't dictate them. The results should be the same regardless whether a chronograph was used. At the same time it's useful to understand why results can be as they are.

I think you've figured out what I was getting at. ES of a large sample only reveals what the "worst case" scenario "might" be. Will it ever be observed in a 5 or 10 shot group? Sometimes, but again, rarely. What shooters can gather from ES is that for a given size of target at long range, they may miss a few times due to the vertical from velocity spread exceeding the size of the target. This is not their fault, it is the nature of the ammo and inherent in the game of trying to hit a target smaller than the rifle/ammo's cone of fire. Too large of a target to accommodate the maximum ammo spread, and there is little challenge to be had trying to hit it. Too small of a target, and hitting it becomes frustrating due to the limitations of the ammo. Rhetorically, how do we select an appropriately sized target?

I am like you, I have largely left the chronograph behind in recent years. Results on target at the 50 yard distance I have been focusing on tell me all I need to know about the ammo. The groups are either tight, or they are not. Nothing to do but try as much quality ammo as possible in search of the desired results. Additionally, there is much more to the achievable precision with a certain ammo than the consistency of velocity alone (which mainly acts on the vertical plane, but can have some slight wind drift implications). Random "fliers" can occur, with the bullet winging off in random directions for seemingly inexplicable reasons. Off axis center of gravity in that bullet? Damage to one side of it? Excessive runout or canted seating to the brass? The list goes on. Good ammo is much more than simply consistent in it's velocity, it is the sum of it's whole construction.
 
Just a question for you guys, would a group of 50 rounds all on one target be helpful for you math guys? Asking because its outside of knowledge zone I just shoot.

I'm still going to shoot at least 10 to 15, 10 round groups also. I have many bricks of this ammo to play with and just orderd some more from Jerry this morning that I'll be receiving Friday including some centre x. Also on Sunday I will be able to test at 300 and if everything comes together through a friend possibly 400 plus on private property.
 
Just a question for you guys, would a group of 50 rounds all on one target be helpful for you math guys? Asking because its outside of knowledge zone I just shoot.

Nah, I don't need to see that. It may be helpful for you, to see the big picture of what your ammo/rifle is doing. Shooting groups can be misleading, if you are not paying attention to how they spread around your POA and taking into account the overall spread for the combined groups. The 50-shot composite will show you what size of target you can reliably hit, and how many "fliers" you can expect per box, causing you misses. Very good ammo will generate between 3.5"x3.5" to 4.5"x4.5" 50-shot groups, I have not seen anyone produce better results than that to date. You decide if this will be helpful to you or not.

 
To estimate overall ES, one must look at the round that impacted the highest from the center of the bull (whichever group that might be on), and what round impacted lowest from the center of the bull (whichever group that might be on). Add together the distances to center of the bull, to arrive at the maximum vertical spread for all shots fired, and from there the ES may be calculated with a ballistic app, roughly, as we do not know the exact velocity range of the ammo (and being off by only 30 fps for the average MV can change calculated vertical spread by up to an inch). I'm eyeballing 5-5.5" of total vertical spread, or 2.62 MOA. If the velocity range was 1030 to 1080, 50 fps ES, calculated MOA spread is 2.7, good enough for me. The ES of the Rifle Match ammo he shot was approximately 50, + or - a few fps.

Now, it is rare to witness the full ES of a large sample on a single 5 or 10 shot group. I'm not advanced enough in mathematics to try to compose a formula for how much smaller the typical ES would be, but the observed ES on the majority of 5 or 10 shot groups is indeed significantly less than the total ES for the entire sample. Say the ES on the typical group he shot was 35. Going back over my data, I would say No, this is not a good lot of SK RM ammo. I am seeing SK ammo hold sub 25 fps for 10 shots (of course, not all groups, but please see attached chart. My worst 10-shot ES for RM ammo was 35, with the others being 25, 26, 23, and 24. Likewise, Standard + only had one group go over 35 fps.


I am like you, I have largely left the chronograph behind in recent years. Results on target at the 50 yard distance I have been focusing on tell me all I need to know about the ammo. The groups are either tight, or they are not. Nothing to do but try as much quality ammo as possible in search of the desired results. Additionally, there is much more to the achievable precision with a certain ammo than the consistency of velocity alone (which mainly acts on the vertical plane, but can have some slight wind drift implications). Random "fliers" can occur, with the bullet winging off in random directions for seemingly inexplicable reasons. Off axis center of gravity in that bullet? Damage to one side of it? Excessive runout or canted seating to the brass? The list goes on. Good ammo is much more than simply consistent in it's velocity, it is the sum of it's whole construction.

I may have understated the ES of the ammo that produced the eight 200 yard targets above. I based my estimate on the average size of the groups, not on the vertical spread visible on the targets. In any case, even vertical spread can give only an estimate of an ammo's ES because it relies on perfect shot execution as the foundation of the calculation.

It's a good point about ES not being the holy grail of ammo. It's worth noting that the ES of a box of ammo is not necessarily the ES of the batch or lot from which it comes. Two boxes from the same lot can have different extreme spreads. A single box from an entire lot of ammo is a relatively small sample size. In any event, a smaller ES with a higher SD may not produce more consistent results than ammo with a higher ES but lower SD. In fact, as you suggest, there's more to good ammo than consistent MV.

The characteristics of good ammo include much more than a small ES or a small SD. It includes those factors identified above and also consistent priming, consistent brass size and thickness, consistent propellent weight and volume, consistent bullet diameter and weight, consistent concentricity or runout of the bullet. In .22LR ammo it's possible for there to be variation in any of these factors. And all that matters less if the rifle's bore is itself flawed in such areas as the consistency of the chamber/leade, the rifling, the bore diameter, and the crown. There are a lot of things that have to come together to produce the best results with .22LR, no matter the range.
 
Was reading all this to see what it was about I would like to throw my 2 cents in about the ammo. Some of the best rimfire ammo I ever used was the ivi stuff you use to get years ago came in the little plastic 50 round boxes with the green and black labels. I had an old ruger 10/22 I use to shoot quarters for fun at 25 and 50 yards with that stuff and could hit smack dead centre of a quarter every time and that’s with open sights the trick is know your rifle and know how to shoot the damn thing. I remember building a barn with a buddy and they had there hay in there with only tin on one side and plastic (due to fear of rain) on the one side there was a big stray cat clawing at the plastic I grabbed my 10/22 and was gonna shoot the thing from the deck on the house about 120 yards from the barn my friends dad says no your gonna shoot a hole in my tin. I simple said if I do I’ll replace it at my cost and not to worry said I would shoot it rite in the ear anyways they all laughed so snapped up the rifle free hand and bang well the cat ran the full length of barn rite off the end they all laughed I went down and brought the cat back with a nice little lead ring where the bullet went straight in it’s ear. They stopped laughing. Moral of the story nothing beats time behind the trigger I use to put no less that two bricks of that I I ammo through that 10/22 every weekend when I was in my early twenties all with out optics don’t ask me to do it now in my 50s. But I just bought a new tikka t1x and getting it set up hope to see what I can do
 
I would caution against using vertical spread on target as justification to dispense with a chronograph.

Lot's of things can cause vertical spread that have nothing to do with velocity changes.

Wind velocity changes from any direction will affect the vertical.

Sunlight, heat and humidity are also factors that that affect verticals that most are not aware of. Atmospheric refraction can move the appearance of the target image and you need to know how to account for it.

If all you are using is the target as the sole indicator, you will not be able to establish the root cause of variance, only the collective effect of that variance.

In the context of testing ammo, you are in reality only testing both ammo and environmentals at the same time and lends toward an exploration of cognitive bias.
 
time for a TRUE & funny story.
I was out at the range shooting 300 yards with my 303. My buddy asked if I had ever tried the 22 at that range. nope..but we can sure try.

So after multiple ground shots & misses....we found the SWEET Spot. It was a branch on a spruce tree behind the burm. It was about 10 to 14 feet above the target. The branch was the 3rd from the top of the tree.
the targets were metal Pigs "2feet x 2feet in size" approx.

I got pretty good at making the shot. Cooey model 39 iron sites. Federal ammo.

A couple days later at the range, there was a fellow shooting a 270 rifle,..trying out his new scope and hand loads. Nice rifle bench, spotting scope ECT.

He was shooting for about 20 minutes having no luck at the 300 yard piggies.
So, just to be a turd,.I grabbed the cooey 39....and got ready to shoot.

he looked over and said " hey, this is for center fire rifles." I purposely ignored his helpful comment,.....aimed the cooey and shot.
Bang.............................................................................................................TING a few seconds later, LOL

He looked at me with a very pizzed off expression.......picked up all his fancy equipment,...jumped in his truck...roared the engine and left ,,LOL
the look on his face and actions were Priceless. Me and my buddy laughed so hard I feel to my knees.

that was a few years back,..and the range suffered a forest fire....now my tall spruce tree & my reference point is gone.
hope you enjoyed.....I sure did.

I pulled off a similar one back in 1970 at a local range. The target was a cast iron skillet hung at 130 yds and the older guy the next bench over was trying to hit it with his 270. Bugger was already cussin' a tad before I started plinking away with my Cooey 39. He was shooting off a rest & I did my shooting off-hand. I hit the gong with every shot I took at 'er. My chum was doing much the same thing with his Remington 512. We were using Dominion standard velocity 22 LR (DND brown box stuff).

By the time we'd rang the skillet a dozen or so times, the grumpy gus with the 270 was totally bummed out & the F bombs & red face were getting us into the giggles. El Fudd cussed his gun a bit, packed up his goodies and buggered off. Them were the good days fer sure. :)

I still have me old Cooey, but ain't got the eyes to use it proper unless I scope the unit, which will be happening pretty soon I reckon.
COOEY M39.jpg
 

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Excellent shooting... be great to see how the average changes with temp.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry. Cant wait for it to warm up a bit and see what happens, and to try it with some center x. I was quite pleased tho knowing that groups under 2" are doable.

Side note there was a change to my rifle from the last targets shot a few weeks ago. I had the guys at IBI take my 20" barrel off and replace it with a 22". The barrel only had 150 rounds thru it prior to shooting these groups. It may shoot tighter with more grounds through it.
 
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Cant wait for it to warm up a bit and see what happens, and to try it with some center x. I was quite pleased tho knowing that groups under 2" are doable.

Side note there was a change to my rifle from the last targets shot. I had the guys at IBI take my 20" barrel off and replace it with a 22". The barrel only had 150 rounds thru it prior to shooting those groups. It may shoot tighter with more grounds through it.

Very nice results shown on those targets. Why the switch to a 22" barrel from a 20"?
 
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